the MANLIEST PAIN OF ALL

[pocochina]

So, we are all up to speed on thingswithwings’ phenomenal Man Pain vid and post? Well worth a watch/read but be warned of spoilers for pretty much everything ever.

It’s one of those wonderfully thought-provoking dark humor/righteous anger pieces, and it crystallized a whole set of my reactions to Man Pain itself, and other peoples’ reactions to

Comments

[penny_lane_42]

Gaius Baltar. Baltar’s guilt isn’t supposed to make him sympathetic because HAHAHA, HE DOESN’T FEEL ANY, and when he does, it is in a distant fourth to HE, HIMSELF, AND HIM. And the narrative makes this painfully clear. We sympathize with Baltar in spite of his awfulness, not because of it. By portraying his reaction as selfishness, the story acknowledges that there is a world outside of Baltar’s self.

Agreed. This is why I love him as a character: the show never excuses him. It knows exactly how awful he is and indeed his entire characterization is built around that. And yet, at the end of the show, when he said the thing about farming and started crying, I had the most EXCELLENT EMOTIONAL REACTION. I cannot even tell you. That moment was perfect and felt earned and real. I am a Baltar fan. I will use this icon.

UGH DON DRAPER. I HATE YOU SO. HATE HATE HATE. Especially when I think of all the people who love him madly and constantly hate on Betty. Yeah, Betty's awful, but she's definitely not as awful as Don and has much more of a reason to be awful. I like her, even when I hate her.

, because from time to time the shows did acknowledge his genocidal maniac serial killer rape-obsessed dickishness. But that was still the structure of his whole story, that it was SO HARD on him to have done those things. He cherishes the memory of that power, and still indulges in it from time to time (the begging? That comes later) and that is what bothers me. Because he’s taking his victims’ suffering and making it his. He wants to take everything from them emotionally, even what he did to them. It’s not renouncing the control itself, merely swapping one expression of it for another. I wonder sometimes if Dru retains a sense of self in the way she does because she never belonged to herself to begin with. He strokes the regret as lovingly as he did the sport of it.

OMG YES. YES YES YES. He's an emotional vampire. A story vampire. Preying on it, hunting it down, sucking it away. YES.

I root for Faith, Willow, and Spike and their efforts to become good and useful rather than dangerous. The power within them is something they need to work to control, and that effort is compelling and sympathetic to me. With Spike, it falls into this common prioritization of men’s journeys (Faith and Willow being women inherently turn that on its head in the way Buffy herself does), but I don’t react to it in the same way. Angel’s story is all about him re-defining who has it coming, and coming to vaguely prefer a definition that is slightly less anti-social. It looks more impressive than it sounds, because the play for sympathy is the anchor weight of his massive, anti-social past.

And worst of all, it’s Angel: the Series. As much as I love pretty much everything else about the show? It really is all about him.

HI. You are my favorite person in the world right now, okay?

[pocochina]

OH BALTAR. I LOVE HIM SO. He was so constantly deflated and undercut and dangerously selfish without being villainous that when there was a genuine emotional moment, you could legitimately feel for him. I was pretty much full of rage and bile by that point in the finale, but yeah, that should have been an effective moment.

Especially when I think of all the people who love him madly and constantly hate on Betty. Yeah, Betty's awful, but she's definitely not as awful as Don and has much more of a reason to be awful. I like her, even when I hate her.

UGH, YES. and that's a part of what Don's Manliest Pain is about, BOO HOO, IT IS SO HARD ON ME TO HAVE SINGLE-HANDEDLY FUCKED UP MY FAMILY AND EVERYONE IN IT. stfu

Whereas Betty's issues are (a) usually understandable, at least and (b) treated as selfishness by the narrative, sometimes I think too much so.

HI. You are my favorite person in the world right now, okay?

[penny_lane_42]

I can totally understand your reaction to the finale--to be honest, his moments with Six were pretty much the only moments that worked for me.

Whereas Betty's issues are (a) usually understandable, at least and (b) treated as selfishness by the narrative, sometimes I think too much so.

Yes. She's messed up, but we're all supposed to know it.

I actually am not at all caught up on Mad Men and I think the primary reason is just that I couldn't deal with Don anymore. Also, it's difficult to live in that world.

[angearia]

If we removed Betty's treatment of her children from the equation, I'd have no problems with Betty. As it stands...

Well, she's physically and psychologically terrorizing children. So I just... can't.

I'm not sure I'd say Don is worse than Betty -- if we say he's using advertising to attack people's self-esteem, I guess he's affecting more people. But I personally believe that formative experiences of abuse like what Betty's dishing out are WAY more malicious, longlasting, and detrimental than the influence of advertising.

I dunno. It's like that meme going around tumblr about people who felt personally victimized by Joss Whedon. I mean, I have felt gutted like a fish by Joss (and angry at him for months because of it) -- but I just can't equate what a storyteller does (and Don's a storyteller) with the child abuse Betty dishes out.

And I say this while in danger of overidentifying with Sally since during the 60's my grandma named Bettie was essentially Betty Draper -- abusive and crazy. And her victimization of her children and her grandchildren -- it's like a storyteller can only hurt me so much because I have to suspend disbelief to let them have power over me. And I can take that power back, I'm in control. When you're a child, though, and your parent/grandparent/caretaker is abusing you... It's the difference between being lied to vs. Willow rearranging your mind to make you believe her -- one I can combat, the other I have no hope of fighting against because of the skewed power dynamic.

There just is no comparison for me. And yes, Betty herself is a product of abuse, but when she starts becoming a willing participant in the perpetuation of victimizing innocents, my sympathy gets sidelined when I prioritize the need to contain her ability to destroy other people.

And here is a worrying thought. If Betty actually had dominion over more people than her children -- would that be better (in that she'd feel acknowledged and thus wouldn't lash out at the people under her power) or if she had the same degree of widespread influence as Don, would she further victimize them all? (I think Betty attacks people specifically because they're powerless against her -- Carla, Sally -- and to victimize these people to me is the lowest of the low because Betty takes what little privilege she has as a white woman and an adult and turns it into a weapon.)

Here's what gets me. Betty, in feeling so powerless, abuses the only people less powerful than her. Fuck with Don all you want Betty, I will clap on clap on, but every time I watch her rip off a butterfly's wings to make herself feel better...

I'm like Ned Stark -- don't cross the line with children. Ever.

[angearia]

I guess I'm saying FFFFFU to the narrative trying to tell me who to sympathize with. Yeah, the show works to make Don more sympathetic than Betty, that's messed up, and Betty certainly isn't glorified the way Don is (oh, to the contrary!) --

Then again some of the worst things Don ever does are to Betty, again with the skewed power dynamic.

[penny_lane_42]

Agreed with all of this.

[penny_lane_42]

Well, yeah, but he's also really neglectful of his kids, right? And the way he treats his wife...I just can't.

Also, I haven't watched quite a bit of the show, so I didn't see a ton of this. I remember a few instances that absolutely weren't okay, but I think she gets worse as the show goes along? I'm definitely not doubting you.

(I think Betty attacks people specifically because they're powerless against her -- Carla, Sally -- and to victimize these people to me is the lowest of the low because Betty takes what little privilege she has as a white woman and an adult and turns it into a weapon.

She absolutely does. Because she has so little power and such a lack of control over her life, she absolutely does.

I'm definitely not defending her actions, but I was saying that I don't think that the show defends her actions. They just place them in a context where you realize exactly why she acts the way she does. It all makes sense, even if it's nothing like okay.

[angearia]

Absolutely, like taken as the show presents it, Don gets excused in ways Betty never does.

For me, though, I just can't compare the way Don treats Betty vs. Betty treating her kids. Obviously, there's a power imbalance where society makes women powerless to a certain extent, but still Betty isn't a child. It's not as terrible to me as adult-on-child abuse -- partly because of the power dynamic, but also largely because a child's growing up is so overwhelming affecting these kids' identities, emotional, and psychological health.

So I'm not sure I can say Don is more awful. Is Don more awful to Betty than vice versa? Of course.

And the parts that I do remember with Don in terms of his being neglectful were his trying to be ~present~ for the kids and getting shut down a lot by Betty. Essentially, he'd try to stop the abuse at times, try to be an active parent, and she'd accuse him of mollycoddling the kids. She might not have much fight in her about certain aspects of her life, but when it came to parenting she PWNd him. Which I think feeds into gender roles where the ~mother~ has the final say (public sphere, private sphere). She basically realized that was her most powerful role and she really abused that power. And Don failed to do right, he did end up neglecting the kids, and at times when he most needed to be there for them. But I guess I'm just more sympathetic to withdrawal from conflict than I am the violent perpetuation of conflict. (I guess I find it easier to cope with abandonment than I do overt in-your-face abuse. Of course, Don knowingly abandoning his kids to over in-your-face abuse is doubly terrible.)

So intellectually I can understand why Betty is lashing out, she's got a horribly traumatic history, plus the abusive relationship with Don is terrible, but the of the parent/child relationship -- I can't equate adult-on-adult abuse (even when it's supported by a disparate power dynamic between the genders where women are infantalized to an extent) with literal adult-on-child abuse.

I was listening to NPR the other day and this one guy talking about people recovering from natural disasters says that children recover quickly, that they're resilient. And I think it's more that children grow around the wound, the wound becomes a part of them on a fundamental level. It's different from when you're an adult, I think.

[eta] Sorry to keep editing! I just thought I should say that obviously my bias is coming into play here. It's less that the show is directing me who to sympathize with more so that what each character's actions are interacting with my own personal experiences. I could survive Don, I think; Betty's more a life ruiner. I think what's so tragic is that Don marries the one woman who can't handle his shit because she has formative trauma from when she was a child, so he's partly making it worse for her. But it's like "the first cut is the deepest" -- it's true for Betty and I think it's true for Betty and Don's kids. (And well it was true for me.)

[penny_lane_42]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I was initially just talking about how much it bothered me that Betty's called on her sins and Don's worshiped for his, you know? The whole show is just so full of so much pain. It makes my heart hurt.

[angearia]

*hugs*

(I was doing my thing where I'm arguing aloud with myself, I think, more so than you -- trying to figure out what I actually think. :P)

[penny_lane_42]

Oh, I know! I can tell when you go to that headspace! I just didn't want you to think I was in anyway excusing Betty's behavior.

*hugs*

[angearia]

You so get me. ♥

[local_max]

Thanks for writing this -- I was thinking about Betty vs. Don and I think I totally agree that, ultimately, if we need to play the 'who is worse?' game, Betty might win. I think that's what I was getting at below in saying that I don't feel bad in still being sympathetic to Don despite his douchebaggery: I am still sympathetic to Betty, in her icy child abuse.

(But I think we all know I have an extremely low threshold for character morality to be sympathetic to people.)

[ever_neutral]

I actually agree with all of this, too. I think Betty's treatment of her children IS worse than Don's treatment of her. (And I have a similar ish with child abuse.)

But like Lauren said, I don't think the narrative excuses her behaviour, so in that way, it bothers me less. And when it comes to Betty vs. Don, with half the fanbase glorifying Don and bashing Betty... Yeah, I can't.

[local_max]

It's annoying, because there are *smart people* who do this. (And there was a similar, more ridiculous strain of people who were harshly bashing Rita on Dexter for being too controlling of her husband. Like, really? And I mean, I get complaints about the quality of the writing, but really?)

[pocochina]

Rita on Dexter for being too controlling of her husband

....
....

by doing what, having the nerve to breathe his air sometimes?