Comments | pocochina: the MANLIEST PAIN OF ALL

pocochina

the MANLIEST PAIN OF ALL

Jun 25, 2011 01:08

So, we are all up to speed on thingswithwings’ phenomenal Man Pain vid and post? Well worth a watch/read but be warned of spoilers for pretty much everything ever.

It’s one of those wonderfully thought-provoking dark humor/righteous anger pieces, and it crystallized a whole set of my reactions to Man Pain itself, and other peoples’ reactions to ( Read more... )

bsg: admiral sissymary, masculinity, the worst, feminism, btvs/ats, btvs/ats: spike is love's bitch, sorkinitis, mad men, bsg: lee adama why are you like this, bsg, btvs/ats: wwp is my boy, leemoveridentification, btvs/ats: angel's hair sticks straight u, man pain

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blackfrancine June 25 2011, 06:38:27 UTC

And I think in a lot of ways his Manliest Pain is the most insidious, because it’s a straight drama, but the damage modern advertising does to all of us is huge. Its fundamental purpose is to create dissatisfaction, to deceive the individual mind and distort the market at large. Don’s job is to go around wreaking misery, and we’re meant maybe not to admire him (though outside of our happy little bubble? People really do) but to root for him all the same.

Gah. Have I told you lately that I love you and want to live with you in a plural marriage? Maybe we can live in Utah and raise chickens and goats or something. Farm fresh eggs--all the time!

Seriously, I was just ranting to a friend about the advertising industry and how it's sole driving force is to erode self esteem and introduce dissatisfaction. And I didn't even think about Don Draper--but that's a perfect way of summing him up.

He wants to take everything from them emotionally, even what he did to them. It’s not renouncing the control itself, merely swapping one ( ... )

pocochina June 25 2011, 08:13:36 UTC

Gah. Have I told you lately that I love you and want to live with you in a plural marriage? Maybe we can live in Utah and raise chickens and goats or something. Farm fresh eggs--all the time!

OF COURSE IT'S YES!

Yeah. The Manliest Pain of Draper is really harshest in a lot of ways in that WE are the fridgees. Like, at least the other two are not-real people in SF worlds/not-real versions of our world. It is so hard on Don Draper to be fucking with OUR HEADS right now.

It's not about some sort of masturbatory celebration of HOW IMPORTANT I AM because I either FAILED to save someone or did something so HORRIBLE that other people suffered. Because you're right--that's just enjoying the power in a different way. But Wes and Logan really are just good old-fashioned scarred--angry and bitter, with a little bit of well-deserved self pity thrown in. Because they're owning their OWN pain, I don't mind it all. In fact, I like it. Yeah. Man Pain discussions, I feel like, end up in over- or at least unhelpful-use of the term (a tough line to ( ... )

penny_lane_42 June 25 2011, 14:08:29 UTC

"he is a mentally ill survivor of child abuse and I don't wanna hear it."

Great point.

pocochina June 25 2011, 16:48:05 UTC

which, you know, is actually fine about fictional characters? It's the attempt to cover it as I HATE MAN PAIN, or sideline the legitimate issues for the sake of the I HATE MAN PAIN, that pings me the wrong way, if that makes sense.

ever_neutral June 26 2011, 04:28:40 UTC

But really, what "Man Pain" means in that context (for Logan and my love Lee as well) is "he is a mentally ill survivor of child abuse and I don't wanna hear it."

Thiiiiiis.

Yeah... The real difference to me between, say, Wesley and Angel, is that the former is portrayed as believing that his pain makes him inferior to others, whereas Angel acts as though his pain makes him superior to others. (And I mean, I say this as someone who loves Angel-the-character.)

pocochina June 26 2011, 16:56:02 UTC

Yes, that's really well-said. And I actually think that could be fine for me on a character level, except the narrative and viewers are like "lol, yup, Wes feels inferior, so/because he probably is!" which I think builds on and reinforces your more dangerous kinds of Man Pain.

ever_neutral June 27 2011, 02:25:37 UTC

I can't figure out what the narrative is trying to say about the Angel-Wes relationship. Wes actually gets an equal--or, significant--amount of story/screen-time after the Connor debacle, so presumably the writers want us to sympathize with him as well as Angel. And unlike the other supporting characters, Wes is actually in charge of his own story? (Well, until 'Home' anyway.) But the story also seems to be saying that Wes's 'redemption' can only be found by earning his way back into Angel's life (i.e. being subordinate to Angel is the best place for him), so ultimately IDK what to think.

penny_lane_42 June 25 2011, 14:06:39 UTC

*desperately wants to join the pluaral marriage*

A commune! Let's all go!

advertising industry and how it's sole driving force is to erode self esteem and introduce dissatisfaction.

UGH YES. I wonder what stories you have to tell yourself if you go into that area as a career? Like, how can you justify what you do when you think about it from that perspective?

OMG I LOVE LOGAN. He can be such an ass, but I still love him.

fails to save people. But I do think it's a little bit different in that she HAS to save them. She's been told that it's her job to save those poor, clueless people in darkened alleyways.... So... I think that's why I don't have a problem with Buffy (not that you brought up Buffy or anything--it just made me think about it, because I've used almost the exact words to defend Buffy as this man pain discussion has used to criticize these characters)--because it is still her pain that she's buckling under--it's because of something that was done to her, an expectation thrust upon her, not something she did.This ( ... )

angearia June 25 2011, 19:27:53 UTC

It makes me want to PUNCH things when people who love Angel then criticize Buffy for being upset about her unjust circumstances. She is literally being oppressed and WTF it is one of the most defended notions in feminism that RAGE about OPPRESSION is JUSTICE.

penny_lane_42 June 25 2011, 20:58:41 UTC

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

And then they're like, "Well, Cordy doesn't complain." But Cordy chose that life. Buffy had no choice. And Cordy basically entirely devotes herself to Angel to such an extent that she loses so much of what makes her great. Buffy, at least, is always about Buffy.

angearia June 25 2011, 22:08:54 UTC

( ... )

pocochina June 26 2011, 00:54:03 UTC

which, you know, (a) yes she does, though it's obviously dwarfed by Angel's epic moping, and (b) so the hell what? It doesn't make her not admirable. It's fine just to be more sympathetic to one of them or the other.

I don't know. It's like the failure to sacrifice oneself entirely (as opposed to merely mostly) is somehow portrayed more sympathetically when it's for the direct sake of a man than for one's own place in history. That's a litte uncomfortable.

penny_lane_42 June 26 2011, 01:04:31 UTC

Oh, no! You're absolutely right! I was just saying that comparing them in that way is ridiculous because they're not in the same circumstances at all. It's apples and oranges, but I have literally seen people talk about how Buffy should just grow up because Cordy does.

I want people to like whoever they want. If you like Cordy better, that's totally cool. If you relate to her or just enjoy watching her or think her arc is better constructed, enjoy that! As long as people don't defend or whitewash inexcusable behavior that's morally wrong or whatever, I think anyone can like anyone they like, and the idea of comparing people is just ridiculous because everyone is different.

I totally agree with your edit.

ever_neutral June 26 2011, 04:30:13 UTC

SO FUCKING MUCH.

FUCK.

FUCK.

local_max June 25 2011, 15:03:05 UTC

Re: Buffy

I do agree, but I think that in some of the ManPain discussions we run across the same thing: I mean, Angel was chosen by the PtB to be a champion of light, for example, and there are lots of other cases where despite the fact that we may criticize the narrative weight placed on the characters, in some respects they really are that important. It's not just Angel's self-importance that leads his gang to rely on him, for example.

And I think that Buffy's habit of blaming everything on herself is not 100% because other people expect her to. I think it's a bit cyclical. There's a great essay on Weight of the Worlds by Spring Summers at Spikecentricity that points out that Buffy's placing the weight of the world on her shoulders is both a good -- in that it shows her responsibility -- and in a sense a bad, because giving herself total responsibility (in her mind) also implies that she has total control; it's in part a way to deal with the fact that not everything in life can be controlled, and that she's not, in fact, a God ( ... )

pocochina June 25 2011, 16:07:14 UTC

Buffy's placing the weight of the world on her shoulders is both a good -- in that it shows her responsibility -- and in a sense a bad, because giving herself total responsibility (in her mind) also implies that she has total control

mmhmm. I think with Buffy it's clearly a different kind of Man Pain, because it's not about this pattern of victimizing others. (I suppose you could argue Ted, but eh, one episode out of 144 does not Manliest Pain make.)

I think in a lot of cases it's about viewer response. Buffy not being a Man and making it Protagonist Pain instead of Man Pain does fundamentally change the show, especially in contrast to its context. And then, a male character with Buffy's Protagonist Pain would be more easily shown/received as sympathetic.

one of the things I love about Buffy and BtVS so much is that she/it blows up the whole idea of a single protagonist at the series' endand eh, Willow to her credit does get shit done and save Buffy before ALL ABOUT MEing, being able to prioritize right after six years of being ( ... )

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