"if one works for just profit (and i've basically been talking only in terms of monetary profit) this can lead to bad things."
Perhaps. I'm not decided on it. I know that love of one's work does not rule out the desire to make a profit for doing that work. It also does not rule out wanting to make the best possible profit. Doing what you intend to do is the purpose of man's productive ability. Profit is the result.
"I am saying that we should take away monetary profit as the reason to do anything all together."
I do not agree with this philosophy. I think that, rationally, monetary profit is not the only motivator of one's work, but there's nothing wrong with taking it into consideration. Indeed, most often profit will be taken into consideration. Profit is not evil, and should in no way be taken out of the picture.
"They do it to provide students with a quality education, and they care about the students. . . Teachers that don't like what they are paid . . . think that their sorrows justify not working any more than what they have to.Who can blame them though?They have grown up in a world that values making money."
This reflects that wanting to do one's job well and wanting to make money are conflicting values. This is a fallacy. And I for one am glad that I live in a society that (somewhat) values making money. I think we could value it much more if we would shed our altruistic premises. Money is what is needed for men to trade with one another. And trade is really the only rational way to do things in a society. It is okay if a teacher wishes to sacrifice his happiness at the expense of taking an underpaid job. If it's a sacrifice, it's not a moral virtue, but that's his choice. If it's not a sacrifice, well, then I will assume he is happy.
I think where we disagree on this point is the fact that you think (as far as I can tell) that sincere work and desire for spiritual profit (by spiritual I mean the sum of a man's consciousness) are in conflict with the desire for monetary profit.
I'll use myself as an example. I want to be a writer and a musician. I intend for either of these two fields to be my career in life (mainly writing). I pursue this field because I love it. I also intend to make as much money as I can from my writing. Why? Because I value my writing, and I expect to receive value for value.
When I write a book, I don't want people to come to the bookstores, get a book, and pay for it with a piece of paper saying "happiness" on it. Their response would be, "But, you have gained real profit, James. The profit of earning my happiness." Ironically, they would keep their money which they spend their time denouncing.
The happiness of a reader is not my goal. My goal is the portrayal of the values and things that I hold to be beautiful and true in this life.
For more information on this, I refer you to Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. There's a speech in that book about money, that is available independently of the book. If you'd like a copy I could send it to you. Maybe you'd get a better idea of where I'm coming from.
(I'm an Objectivist. If you'd like to check that out to understand some of my premises, check out www.aynrand.org)
"We need to replace the persuit of money with the persuit of healthy and happy survival. Does that sound like a paradox? I rest my case."
I like to write music, essays, and books as well. I would rather give my book away and see people reading it (and circulate my reasoning) rather than get money for each book sold. I am recieving value for value.
It just is not rational to equate money with happiness. Families and communities that work together to provide necessities, fellowship, music making (etc.), and work hard together to harvest the seasons crop and never see their labor interpreted in currency are probably more happy than the business owner who lives alone, cuts wages on his workers so that he gets more money and looks more "successful," arguably. Happiness comes from within, and should be defined in and of the self. Not defined by an external force, such as money, bigger car, bigger bank account, or title.
It's our definition of value. What do we want to get in return for what we do? I am content with survival and making a difference in the world. (Whatever it takes to survive, not whatever it takes to make money). Money doesn't logically measure that for me.
I invite you to read the rational of one of the leading intellectuals of our age: Noam Chomsky. I can't say that I agree with everything that his statements represent, but he has some very good points that must not be ignored. I warn you to remove the bias and close minded nature that accompanies the natural approach to these statements, and read logically.
Perhaps you can point me to the specific speech within the book Atlas Shrugged, I plan on obtaining a copy for myself... I always like having a well rounded library :)
Actually, they make a distinct "pamphlet" with that speech available. If you go to www.aynrand.org, you can order a free "Ayn Rand Sampler". It includes that passage.
Perhaps. I'm not decided on it. I know that love of one's work does not rule out the desire to make a profit for doing that work. It also does not rule out wanting to make the best possible profit. Doing what you intend to do is the purpose of man's productive ability. Profit is the result.
"I am saying that we should take away monetary profit as the reason to do anything all together."
I do not agree with this philosophy. I think that, rationally, monetary profit is not the only motivator of one's work, but there's nothing wrong with taking it into consideration. Indeed, most often profit will be taken into consideration. Profit is not evil, and should in no way be taken out of the picture.
"They do it to provide students with a quality education, and they care about the students. . . Teachers that don't like what they are paid . . . think that their sorrows justify not working any more than what they have to.Who can blame them though?They have grown up in a world that values making money."
This reflects that wanting to do one's job well and wanting to make money are conflicting values. This is a fallacy. And I for one am glad that I live in a society that (somewhat) values making money. I think we could value it much more if we would shed our altruistic premises. Money is what is needed for men to trade with one another. And trade is really the only rational way to do things in a society. It is okay if a teacher wishes to sacrifice his happiness at the expense of taking an underpaid job. If it's a sacrifice, it's not a moral virtue, but that's his choice. If it's not a sacrifice, well, then I will assume he is happy.
I think where we disagree on this point is the fact that you think (as far as I can tell) that sincere work and desire for spiritual profit (by spiritual I mean the sum of a man's consciousness) are in conflict with the desire for monetary profit.
I'll use myself as an example.
I want to be a writer and a musician. I intend for either of these two fields to be my career in life (mainly writing).
I pursue this field because I love it.
I also intend to make as much money as I can from my writing. Why? Because I value my writing, and I expect to receive value for value.
When I write a book, I don't want people to come to the bookstores, get a book, and pay for it with a piece of paper saying "happiness" on it. Their response would be, "But, you have gained real profit, James. The profit of earning my happiness." Ironically, they would keep their money which they spend their time denouncing.
The happiness of a reader is not my goal. My goal is the portrayal of the values and things that I hold to be beautiful and true in this life.
For more information on this, I refer you to Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. There's a speech in that book about money, that is available independently of the book. If you'd like a copy I could send it to you. Maybe you'd get a better idea of where I'm coming from.
(I'm an Objectivist. If you'd like to check that out to understand some of my premises, check out www.aynrand.org)
Reply
"We need to replace the persuit of money with the persuit of healthy and happy survival. Does that sound like a paradox? I rest my case."
I like to write music, essays, and books as well. I would rather give my book away and see people reading it (and circulate my reasoning) rather than get money for each book sold. I am recieving value for value.
It just is not rational to equate money with happiness. Families and communities that work together to provide necessities, fellowship, music making (etc.), and work hard together to harvest the seasons crop and never see their labor interpreted in currency are probably more happy than the business owner who lives alone, cuts wages on his workers so that he gets more money and looks more "successful," arguably. Happiness comes from within, and should be defined in and of the self. Not defined by an external force, such as money, bigger car, bigger bank account, or title.
It's our definition of value. What do we want to get in return for what we do? I am content with survival and making a difference in the world. (Whatever it takes to survive, not whatever it takes to make money). Money doesn't logically measure that for me.
I invite you to read the rational of one of the leading intellectuals of our age: Noam Chomsky. I can't say that I agree with everything that his statements represent, but he has some very good points that must not be ignored. I warn you to remove the bias and close minded nature that accompanies the natural approach to these statements, and read logically.
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/rbr/noamrbr2.html
Perhaps you can point me to the specific speech within the book Atlas Shrugged, I plan on obtaining a copy for myself... I always like having a well rounded library :)
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment