a casual conversation with mark sandford...
GwarriorX: hey mark
mb sandford: hey phil whats up
GwarriorX: do you know anything about marx's theory of societal evolution?
GwarriorX: like the whole preclass, to asiatic, to ancient, feudal, capitalism thing?
mb sandford: one second, let me get my marx-engels reader.....i dont know it off the top of my head
GwarriorX: just one seemingly big idea that i dont quite understand: obviously from preclass societies to feudal societies there is increasing inequality
GwarriorX: but then comes capitalism, and capitalism will supposedly collapse back into socialism
GwarriorX: so, is he suggesting capitalism has more inequality than a feudal system?
mb sandford: right, marx believed that the final straw for capitalism, when capitalism has reached his peak, will fall into communism. based on the idea of marxism, capitalism is the all evil, but say a feudal system of lords and tenants and such, it isnt much better....
GwarriorX: so he's saying capitalism is worse than feudalism?
mb sandford: let me think this one out loud
GwarriorX: that seems right in the scheme of the logic... but it just doesnt sit right in my head mb sandford: i'm trying to think in terms of a lower class peasant in a feudal system
mb sandford: as opposed to a low class worker in capitalism
GwarriorX: ok
mb sandford: in capitalism the worker is isolated, which is one of marx's critiques of capitalism, leaving everyone isolated, like the person who makes the hammer never knows who uses the hammer, but its going to be by someone most likely in the class above them.....whereas a feudal system....that is what gets me, i dont know the relationship between the peasants and the lords
GwarriorX: i was just thinking the same thing:
mb sandford: but i do know that in feudal systems everything was run on a small scale, no large scale government, although everything went back up to the top
mb sandford: in feudal systems you have the dukes and such, who all work for the king
mb sandford: leading me to believe maybe there is just a bit more 'communication' per se with the feudal lords, and the king who owns everyone, but still its based on the ownership of one person; the king
GwarriorX: in a feudal system there is less alienation from work. yes, the peasants are screwed into being peasants their whole lives and they live like complete shit compared to a lord. but they work the land for themselves and provide for their family. they pay taxes to a lord, but for the most part exist as a part of their town, family, and farm. perhaps capitalism is worse because the "prole" actually works for the corporations. like you said, the hammer will just get shipped off in a box with the other 234917293 hammers made exactly the same. in capitalism you are less human...
mb sandford: right, i see what you are saying, although they are both pretty shitty, i really honestly believe that Marx would believe that capitalism makes you less human based on the means of production and the relationship between the worker and BOURGOISIE
GwarriorX: so i can see on a social level how capitalism could be worse than feudalism. but is that what he was saying with the evolution theory? i was under the impression that the increasing inequality was in terms of economics. as absurd as the gap is between a bougeoisier(?) and a prole... i'im inclined to believe it is better than a peasant living in a thatch hut and a noble living in a palace
mb sandford: Marx: "What was the nature of the old society? It can be characterized in one word: feudalism. (further down) They determined, in this form, the relation of the individual to the state as a whole; that is, his political situation, or in other words, his separation and exclusion from the other elements of society. For this organization of national loife did not constitute property and labour as social elements; it rather succeeded in separating them from the body of the state, and made them distinct societies within society.....
mb sandford: but a revolution dissolved the political character of the feudal socieites....he goes on to say
GwarriorX: in my mind, the evolution goes just as Marx suggests, until the french revolution and all that...then it seems it took a step back and started over with capitalism and it's progression
GwarriorX: boo ya
GwarriorX: is that what he's talking about?
mb sandford: yeah i believe thats what he is talking about, at least i HOPE he is talking about that
GwarriorX: hahah
GwarriorX: good talk
mb sandford: hey phil whats up
GwarriorX: do you know anything about marx's theory of societal evolution?
GwarriorX: like the whole preclass, to asiatic, to ancient, feudal, capitalism thing?
mb sandford: one second, let me get my marx-engels reader.....i dont know it off the top of my head
GwarriorX: just one seemingly big idea that i dont quite understand: obviously from preclass societies to feudal societies there is increasing inequality
GwarriorX: but then comes capitalism, and capitalism will supposedly collapse back into socialism
GwarriorX: so, is he suggesting capitalism has more inequality than a feudal system?
mb sandford: right, marx believed that the final straw for capitalism, when capitalism has reached his peak, will fall into communism. based on the idea of marxism, capitalism is the all evil, but say a feudal system of lords and tenants and such, it isnt much better....
GwarriorX: so he's saying capitalism is worse than feudalism?
mb sandford: let me think this one out loud
GwarriorX: that seems right in the scheme of the logic... but it just doesnt sit right in my head mb sandford: i'm trying to think in terms of a lower class peasant in a feudal system
mb sandford: as opposed to a low class worker in capitalism
GwarriorX: ok
mb sandford: in capitalism the worker is isolated, which is one of marx's critiques of capitalism, leaving everyone isolated, like the person who makes the hammer never knows who uses the hammer, but its going to be by someone most likely in the class above them.....whereas a feudal system....that is what gets me, i dont know the relationship between the peasants and the lords
GwarriorX: i was just thinking the same thing:
mb sandford: but i do know that in feudal systems everything was run on a small scale, no large scale government, although everything went back up to the top
mb sandford: in feudal systems you have the dukes and such, who all work for the king
mb sandford: leading me to believe maybe there is just a bit more 'communication' per se with the feudal lords, and the king who owns everyone, but still its based on the ownership of one person; the king
GwarriorX: in a feudal system there is less alienation from work. yes, the peasants are screwed into being peasants their whole lives and they live like complete shit compared to a lord. but they work the land for themselves and provide for their family. they pay taxes to a lord, but for the most part exist as a part of their town, family, and farm. perhaps capitalism is worse because the "prole" actually works for the corporations. like you said, the hammer will just get shipped off in a box with the other 234917293 hammers made exactly the same. in capitalism you are less human...
mb sandford: right, i see what you are saying, although they are both pretty shitty, i really honestly believe that Marx would believe that capitalism makes you less human based on the means of production and the relationship between the worker and BOURGOISIE
GwarriorX: so i can see on a social level how capitalism could be worse than feudalism. but is that what he was saying with the evolution theory? i was under the impression that the increasing inequality was in terms of economics. as absurd as the gap is between a bougeoisier(?) and a prole... i'im inclined to believe it is better than a peasant living in a thatch hut and a noble living in a palace
mb sandford: Marx: "What was the nature of the old society? It can be characterized in one word: feudalism. (further down) They determined, in this form, the relation of the individual to the state as a whole; that is, his political situation, or in other words, his separation and exclusion from the other elements of society. For this organization of national loife did not constitute property and labour as social elements; it rather succeeded in separating them from the body of the state, and made them distinct societies within society.....
mb sandford: but a revolution dissolved the political character of the feudal socieites....he goes on to say
GwarriorX: in my mind, the evolution goes just as Marx suggests, until the french revolution and all that...then it seems it took a step back and started over with capitalism and it's progression
GwarriorX: boo ya
GwarriorX: is that what he's talking about?
mb sandford: yeah i believe thats what he is talking about, at least i HOPE he is talking about that
GwarriorX: hahah
GwarriorX: good talk