personal anecdote != sound logicvaguelyweirdMarch 25 2008, 07:06:26 UTC
er, this really bothers me.
i especially dislike the reliance on personal anecdote. the whole "i know one lazy black person, qed they're all lazy" attitude.
asians got an interesting start in america -- first with chinese labor for the railroads, shifting into restaurants (cooking still being considered a woman's job) and laundry (woman's job, again). today, there are nails salons, convenience stores, and if you're not as lucky, clothing manufacture (which is clearly a mixed bag). generally, these seem like launching pads from which families grew wealth and managed to educate their children. asians are immigrating, already educated in a western style. the simple existence of a "studious asian" stereotype provides something to live up to.
[if i can guess, people of south/central american nationality are taking similar routes: doing the jobs no one else wants in the US (agriculture & housekeeping), ensuring their children's education at all costs.]
compare that to the dumb/lazy/criminal stereotype surrounding North-NAs and AfAs, hell, in some cases even women (dumb/physically-weak/emotional/irrational). the historical background of having no choice, having culture and pride and community stripped away. maybe there is a backlash of pride -- it's a lot harder to bite the dust willingly after history has shoved your community's face in it.
it's telling that the first response to seeing a black male in a white-dominant area is often fear. I don't think the reaction is nearly as common for asians, or other "minority" ethnic groups. in a world where the choice between equally qualified people might be "gut reaction", the influence of prejudice is unrestrained.
past that, i have no real right to talk: i'm not black, and i'm definitely privileged. i've got financially stable parents, i've dropped out of an ivy league school and am living comfortably. but i don't have someone generalizing my race from me, like the author does for "MJ".
i think the people we need to hear from are black americans who have "succeeded" in whatever way, and those who have worked very hard without succeeding. or maybe we already hear from them, in support of government programs.
sometimes i wonder if the resentment against those programs is spawned by a stinginess with the pocketbook; people don't like charity by coercion? sure, throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away, but relatively few people, especially anti-program people, are interested in investing something more valuable -- time and effort.
Re: personal anecdote != sound logicpermablueMarch 26 2008, 00:16:30 UTC
"and those who have worked very hard without succeeding. or maybe we already hear from them, in support of government programs."
Honestly, I think that would shut me up and change my views. If you could show me a significant number of kids who tried hard and did well in school and made every effort, but fell flat... that would be proof enough.
Until then, I still believe that 99% of the people who do their absolute damndest will get where they want to go.
"it's telling that the first response to seeing a black male in a white-dominant area is often fear. "
This is interesting... I seriously doubt that in all but the deepest south, if that black male wore a polo and jeans, was mild mannared, hell just an average person they would not look at him any differently.
Then take a white male, overweight with a shaved head and tattoos and biker clothes... then you'd have fear.
"hell, in some cases even women (dumb/physically-weak/emotional/irrational)."
I belive this is only a tempory hurdle... I've been damn impressed with the women I work with, and the one's that do their job and get results are looked at with nothing but respect.
"sometimes i wonder if the resentment against those programs is spawned by a stinginess with the pocketbook; people don't like charity by coercion? sure, throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away, but relatively few people, especially anti-program people, are interested in investing something more valuable -- time and effort."
Also agreed, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. At the end of the day though, I'd like to see hand out programs going to ONLY children and the disabled... everything else should go to adult education, job training, or literacy classes.
i especially dislike the reliance on personal anecdote. the whole "i know one lazy black person, qed they're all lazy" attitude.
asians got an interesting start in america -- first with chinese labor for the railroads, shifting into restaurants (cooking still being considered a woman's job) and laundry (woman's job, again). today, there are nails salons, convenience stores, and if you're not as lucky, clothing manufacture (which is clearly a mixed bag). generally, these seem like launching pads from which families grew wealth and managed to educate their children. asians are immigrating, already educated in a western style. the simple existence of a "studious asian" stereotype provides something to live up to.
[if i can guess, people of south/central american nationality are taking similar routes: doing the jobs no one else wants in the US (agriculture & housekeeping), ensuring their children's education at all costs.]
compare that to the dumb/lazy/criminal stereotype surrounding North-NAs and AfAs, hell, in some cases even women (dumb/physically-weak/emotional/irrational). the historical background of having no choice, having culture and pride and community stripped away. maybe there is a backlash of pride -- it's a lot harder to bite the dust willingly after history has shoved your community's face in it.
it's telling that the first response to seeing a black male in a white-dominant area is often fear. I don't think the reaction is nearly as common for asians, or other "minority" ethnic groups. in a world where the choice between equally qualified people might be "gut reaction", the influence of prejudice is unrestrained.
past that, i have no real right to talk: i'm not black, and i'm definitely privileged. i've got financially stable parents, i've dropped out of an ivy league school and am living comfortably. but i don't have someone generalizing my race from me, like the author does for "MJ".
i think the people we need to hear from are black americans who have "succeeded" in whatever way, and those who have worked very hard without succeeding. or maybe we already hear from them, in support of government programs.
sometimes i wonder if the resentment against those programs is spawned by a stinginess with the pocketbook; people don't like charity by coercion? sure, throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away, but relatively few people, especially anti-program people, are interested in investing something more valuable -- time and effort.
Reply
Honestly, I think that would shut me up and change my views. If you could show me a significant number of kids who tried hard and did well in school and made every effort, but fell flat... that would be proof enough.
Until then, I still believe that 99% of the people who do their absolute damndest will get where they want to go.
"it's telling that the first response to seeing a black male in a white-dominant area is often fear. "
This is interesting... I seriously doubt that in all but the deepest south, if that black male wore a polo and jeans, was mild mannared, hell just an average person they would not look at him any differently.
Then take a white male, overweight with a shaved head and tattoos and biker clothes... then you'd have fear.
"hell, in some cases even women (dumb/physically-weak/emotional/irrational)."
I belive this is only a tempory hurdle... I've been damn impressed with the women I work with, and the one's that do their job and get results are looked at with nothing but respect.
"sometimes i wonder if the resentment against those programs is spawned by a stinginess with the pocketbook; people don't like charity by coercion? sure, throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away, but relatively few people, especially anti-program people, are interested in investing something more valuable -- time and effort."
Also agreed, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. At the end of the day though, I'd like to see hand out programs going to ONLY children and the disabled... everything else should go to adult education, job training, or literacy classes.
Reply
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