I''m BACK! I'm employed! I'm Catholic!! I'm single...
Thats right freinds. After 3 months of powdered milk, raman noodles and Internet Black-out here in Jackson, MI, Im finally back! Its been a rough 3 months and some very BIG changes have occurred.
First and foremost, I'm employed:
Sure, I had a job in mall security when I moved down here, but this is MUCH MUCH BIGGER! I'm a short physical exam away ( Read more... )
Before I get started however I would like to ask you a question:
"Where in the Bible does it say that you are to base your faith solely upon scripture and that the New Testement the only rule of faith?"
Now as to your arguements,
(((Prayer to the DEAD is quite erroneous.)))
"Now about the dead rising-have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" Mark 12:26-27
So the "Saints" are NOT dead. They are not rotting in the ground. They are in Heaven. Was not Jesus seen conversing with Moses and Elijah? Are not the Martyrs seen in heaven in the book of Revealation? The saints can pray for us and thats all we ever ask of them.
((((prayer to Mary is both heretical and contrary to the Bible...Even one "Hail Mary" is blasphemous))))
(("Hail Mary, Full of grace, the Lord is with thee"))
"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." Luke 1:28 KJV
(("Blessed art thou amongst woman and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus"))
"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."
The hail Mary is praying scripture. Is scripture blasphemous?
Now the rosary:
We begin with the apostles creed which many many protestants proclaim to this day:
"I believe in one God, the Father almighty. Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was concieved by the power of the Holy Spirit, Suffered under Pontiuos Pilate, was cricified, died and was buried. He decended to the dead. On the Third day he rose again and accended into heaven. He is seated at the right hand of the father and will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic (or universal if you will) church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body and the live everlasting. Amen."
We then pray an our Father.
We then pray 3 hail marys in contemplative meditation, usually asking for an increase of Faith, Hope and Love.
We follow this by saying "Glory be to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be. World without end, amen.
We then pray 5 sets of 1 our father and and 10 hail marys all the while meditating on a mystery in the life of Christ. There are 4 sets of 5 mysteries.
For instance, the Sorrowful mysteries consist of "the agony in the garden", "the scorging", "the crowning of thorns", "the carrying of the cross" and the "crucifiction".
The point of these meditations is to shut up and be receptive to what God reveals in your heart. The hail Marys ask for her prayers for guidience.
Finally, the POINT. It WORKS. I can't explain it, but this is why soooo many Christians throught history have had devotion to Mary (Martin Luther included). It really REALLY works! Not through any divine power on Mary's part. She has none. But through her intercessory power, just as I have intercessory power I can practice for my fellow christians.
(((See Luke 2:22-24 where she must offer turtle doves as a purification for her first born Son)))
Are you saying that when Jesus was baptized it was because he was a sinner and needed to be purified and reconciled to God?
What about when the Lepers were cleansed by Jesus and he told them to go and show themselves to the priests as was the custom of the law?
Are you saying that Mary should've thrown all humbleness to the wind and stated that she was above the law?
Remember that the purification was meant for both the mother AND the son. Was Jesus unclean? Imperfect?
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Indeed you are correct my brother. But WHOS faith? Can we be healed and forgiven if someone else helps us?
Consider this:
"Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw THEIR faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.""
Can't my brother carry me to Jesus on a mat? It is true that if I do not respond to the grace he gives me for it, that grace will do me no good, but thats another topic.
There are MANY more verses dealing with the intersession of saints, but this entry is growing quite long.
I'm not asking you to became Catholic. I'm just pleading with you to understand the Catholic Church and not hate it.
We are all brothers in Christ and infighting among us can often drive people away from Jesus.
Please, Lets continue this discussion.
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"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
What can we most pull from this text? The bible is the basis for our faith. Not the pope. Not tradition. Every word every line every letter is the basis for our faith because every letter points to the true source of all! Christ!
The hail Mary is obviously a warping of the text to create a chant. Obviously in its context it was not meant for what it is used as now. This was a statement to her. Period. Now where in the bible is it set forth as a standard? Where it no longer becomes thought but a mindless chant. You've watched an indiana jones movie before I'm sure. What will you see in films such as The Temple of Doom? Thousands of tribe members bowing before a statue, chanting. Not only do I question the behavior but I also question it according to psalms. Should we not sing a new song to the lord? Not act as though we are zombies in a tribe. Truly she was blessed because she carried our lord and savior but that's all she did. Period. We should only be thankful for her deed, but not construct vast memorials to her. On the other hand, we see christ proscribe only one prayer that should be held fast to, the our father. Martin Luther obviously would have a devotion to Mary at some point because he was a monk for years and years before he began to point out errors in the catholic churches for debate. I also ask you....why would you pray to her for faith, hope, and love. Let me provide you with an example. If you wanted a drink of water and you couldn't move, would you turn to your father to ask your mother for a glass of water or would you simply go to the person of the intended message. Christ blessed us with the ability to ask for anything to him through prayer. Why sacrifice that personal bond in favor of praying to someone who cannot hear your prayer? Truly Christ can speak with whoever he wants because he is christ who rose lazarus from an apparent grave and said he was only sleeping.
Mary is merely a vessel for the birth of christ. She was not incarnent of the holy spirit as christ was. Therefore she was not without sin. She is a part of the line from Adam. The bible is a book pointing to christ's birth and his line from the promise to adam. Adam being sinful and carried the curse of the original sin. Christ's baptism was to fulfill old testament prophesy.
And if you are hinting at works in your last comment, ya probly shouldn't go there because depending on which section of the bible you choose to debate it could go either way. james for instance points out that good works seem to be a means to gain god's graces but that's commonly debated with john 3:16 "for god so loved the world" and so on and so forth but also followed up with its based in faith so that no one can boast.
Btw not a catholic hater, I just believe christ is my friend and I don't need anyone's intercession other than his hand and his word, which i feel are much more comforting than that of a fallible human's.
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All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
What can we most pull from this text? The bible is the basis for our faith. Not the pope. Not tradition. Every word every line every letter is the basis for our faith because every letter points to the true source of all! Christ!))
In order to "pull" anything from this text, we must consider when it was written and to whom. Its taken from the 3rd chapter of 2nd Timothy. It may have been written by Paul and is addressed to a man named Timothy who lived almost 2000 years ago. Its not addressed to you or I so we must read it as Paul intended Timothy to do so.
When Paul mentions "all scripture", he really means it. And "all scripture" at that time included not a SINGLE book of the new testement. So I will conceed that Paul states that the JEWISH scriptures are "God-breathed and...USEFUL for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"
Notice how Paul says "USEFUL". He doesnt say (nore is it ever written in the bible) that Scripture is "THE SOLE MEANS for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteiousness".
Interstingly enough, this same verse can actually point to something different.
"continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it"
What has Timothy learned? The Gospel. Faith in Jesus Christ.
From whom did Timothy learn it? The apostles! And what the apostles taught was mostly by word of mouth. We don't have faith in some old letters written by dead guys. We have faith in Jesus Christ! And surely our Lord didnt sit down and write some books and tell everyone to believe in them. Jesus founded a Church! A church that the "gates of hell would not prevail against".
Jn 15:16 Jesus chose special men
Jn 20:21 Jesus gave apostles his own mission
Lk 22:29-30 Gave them a Kingdom
Jn 10:16 one shepherd to shepherd his sheep
Lk 22:32 and Jn 21:17 Peter apointed chief shepherd
the list gos on...
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Umm he learned it from the apostles and because they are dead now, we cant exactly learn from them directly so our source becomes their words on issues that are written in letters to various men who had the same issue. You are missing my complete point in that you think faith is the bible. Faith is not the bible but it sets forth the rules laws and basis for our faith because it is from the apostles and our sole means of getting true unwarped information about our lord and savior jesus christ. Christ does choose men to lead his flock but tell me do all men today have the same integrity of persay Peter or Paul? I think not. Christ according to our church has called bishops pastors and the like that abuse their positions. Child molesters and the maritally unfaithful. I've seen it I know about it. Men cannot be fully entrusted with our faith. They are merely leaders and are fallible. Christ's words actions as well as the words and actions of the apostles set forth in our bible is the unadulterated truth.
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We indeed MUST consider who every book and letter was written to. Not doing so is what it MEANS to take them out of context.
Look at this verse:
"Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered brings shame upon his head. But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had her head shaved." 1Corinthians 11:4-6
If we don't consider when this verse was written and to who, we find shame visited upon the heads of most woman do we not? Do the girls in your church all where veils?
When Jesus is talking to his Apostles, we must consider that. You and I are diciples, not Apostles. Or if paul is writing to someone who was raised Jewish 2000 years ago and refers to "scripture", we must NOT jump to the conclusion that he means OUR scripture.
I DO base my faith on the bible as a Catholic, but not ONLY the bible. Any time you have a statement, unless you have a teaching authority to interprete it, you get 30,000 different views on the matter. How long our conversation has now become stands as proof that someone can "logically" draw two different conclusions from the same verses.
Did God truly intend to leave believers endlessly debating about the meaning of a book? The Catholic belief is, no. Jesus apointed apostles and gave them authority to teach, preach and drive out demons. You admit that, but then assume that that authority has all together left the earth.
Consider this:
""""For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
" May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,'[d] and,
" May another take his place of leadership. Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.
So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles."""
-Acts 1:20-26
Here we have an example of the election of a new apostle. There is much evidence also of the apostles apointing bishops, priests and decons. Paul himself submitted to his appointment by those who were already apostles. Paul obviously teaches with authority as he writes to the many churches in his letter later compiled to form most of the new testement. This authority comes NOT because he spent 3 years around Jesus like the other apostles. It comes from the Holy Spirit which he recieved when those who recieved it like tonges of fire on penticost layed hands upon him.
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Please excuse a shorter response as I wallow in my frustration.
I agree with you. Man is fallible. The POPE is fallible. The disagreement among Catholics and Protestants comes from a misunderstanding. I believe Catholics who DON'T know thier faith are to blame.
papel infallibility is ultimately NOT about the Pope. Its about the Holy Spirit. Its not through any merit of his own. It is a gift that protects him from error when and ONLY when:
""(1) The pronouncement must be made by the lawful successor to Peter. (2) The subject matter must be in the area of faith and morals. (3) The pope must be speaking ex cathedra, that is from the very seat and office of Peter. In this way he must be specifically intending to proclaim a doctrine, binding the entire Church to its assent. If one or more of these elements is missing, there is no infallible pronouncement. Most "examples" of papal "errors" emerge when critics ignore the necessity of these three points. (Madrid, pp. 135-136, Pope Fiction)""
I also agree with you that KNOWONE is saved without the saving grace of Jesus. Though our Churches have disagreement about HOW that happens, we all agree that it does, and for this I'm happy.
I'm not asking you to become Catholic. I'm simply trying to spread the word to all christians that Catholicism when practiced properly is at the VERY least a valid and non-blasphemous means of worship. There are many false teachings on what Catholics believe and we Industrialized Catholics need to hit the books more (especially THE book. LOL)
I'm sorry to hear about your pastor. Satan does like getting his claws on the best of us.
And YES, we should play Perfect Dark. I wish we both had xbox 360s so we could play right now! LOL
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Just a waste of money right now!
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Peter who was called "satan" and denyed Jesus three times? Paul who persecuted Christians? These men did not have integrity because of there actions. It was because of what they had within them, the Holy Spirit.
((((Christ according to our church has called bishops pastors and the like that abuse their positions. Child molesters and the maritally unfaithful. I've seen it I know about it. Men cannot be fully entrusted with our faith. They are merely leaders and are fallible.))))
I will NOT deny that there has been evil done by men of authority in the past and to this day. Even Popes. We've had some ROTTEN popes. But I think theres confusion as to the doctrine of Paple Infallibility. Many, both protestant and catholic, believe this is supposed to mean that the church can do no wrong. This is CONTRARY to church teaching however.
The docrtrine on paple infalliblibly states that the Pope will be protected by the Holy Spirit from error when and ONLY when he is speaking on the subject of "Faith" and "Morales" and ONLY when he states that he is teaching in the "seat of peter" and infallibly.
Not every letter the pope writes or word he says has this authority. Not everything the pope DOES is infallible either.
As far as scandles in the church, this does not invalidate the gifts we have recieved.
"If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself."
-2 Timothy 2:13
Everyone is faillible in their actions. Every denomination has its child molesters. I agree with your statements on this matter. But the Holy Spirit does NOT steal away free will. Even after we recieve the Spirit, we still have free will to choose Love or not.
Therefore, the Word of Christ is true. We can hear it today. We Catholics hear it From Scripture and Sacred Tradition under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that is in all of us and gives the sucessors of the apostles thier authority to interprete Scripture and Tradition. We are NOT a flock without a sheperd.
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How is the text "warped"? We are not taking it out of context to prove a point. The statements made in the hail Mary actually become MORE relivent to the prayer when KEPT in context.
In context, it is not WE that call Mary "highly favored", "She who the Lord is with" and "blessed among woman", it is the Angel, who's speaking for GOD!!
In context, it is not WE that call Mary "blessed among woman", it is Elizabeth filled with the HOLY SPIRIT!!
So though these are statements to Mary, we trust that they are true statements and safe to say.
((((Where it no longer becomes thought but a mindless chant))))
Who said anything about "mindless"? My last entry explained what is on our minds while we recite the hail Mary. "Mysteries of Faith". Jesus Christ is on our mind!!
And who said anything about a "chant"? This is NOT a means of "self-hypnosis"(though it may be mentally soothing like nurishing food may be flavorful). It is first and foremost, a prayer. That is, a request for Mary's prayers of intersession. That doesn't mean we don't ALSO go straight to God/Jesus. Prayers to God and Jesus are a vital part of the rosary. And the rosary is just PART of a catholic prayer life. A catholic need not even pray it.
The rosary was given to us for a very important reason. Throughout christian history, an overwhelming majority of the church were illiturate. To this day most of the world can't read, and even those that can are quite poor scripture scholars. So how can someone have a rich prayer life on there own, no scriptures, without straying away from Jesus? The rosary keeps us focused on Jesus! I assume you've never had a devotion to Mary, but speaking as one who does and knows MANY others who also do, she helps. Shes ALL about Jesus.
((((((why would you pray to her for faith, hope, and love. Let me provide you with an example. If you wanted a drink of water and you couldn't move, would you turn to your father to ask your mother for a glass of water or would you simply go to the person of the intended message.))))))
What if in your example instead of a glass of water, you wanted a glass of wine? Lets say you were at a wedding or something and they were all out. Your friend Jesus is the Son of God! He can help!
Mary: "they have no wine."
Jesus: "Woman, how does your concern effect me? My hour has not yet come.
Mary: "Do whatever he tells you"
Instant wine!
(John, Chapter 2)
Mary's involvment in this miricle is in no way blasphemous. She herself did not change the water, just as any prayer through Mary that is answered, is answered by Jesus! Note that "Woman" in the original greek was a normal, polite form of address.
"how does your concern effect me?" The original greek was a hebrew expression of hostility or conflict of interest.
Despite this conflict of interest, Jesus indeed performed the miricle, at his mother's insistance.
If God truely IS the God of the living, and Mary is alive in heaven, then it is not implusable that such a discourse could still occur.
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John Chapter 2 is in no way relevent. That conversation pertains to mary to christ. Yes you are right her involvement with the miracle isnt blamphemous but it in no way pertains to the middle man formula set forth in my example. It to me is unfortunate that you can't just entrust all of your prayers and thanks and blessings to your lord and savior jesus christ. A blessing that was given to you.
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I have read much of the Reformation. Its quite interesting how each of these "revolutionaries" hated eachother's guts. Luther, Calvin and Zwingly(cant spell, lol) couldn't agree on anything other then the "Catholic Church being wrong". Furthermore, each of them had thier own version of the "truth". Without the authority of Apostalic Sucession we have no way of dicerning beween the 30,000 different "Holy Spirits" that belong to the same number of protestant denominations.
The church did indeed call people "heretics" and excommunicate them, but this was ultimately not meant to "control people". It was meant to protect the deposit of faith so that people couldn't claim to be Catholic and yet teach things contrary to what the Church teaches.
There were plenty of reformers before Luther who were permitted to preach and even embraised by the Church. This was because they did not deny the authority of the Church. Luther didn't deny it either in his Thesis. It was his denyal of the Papacy later that ultimately excommunicated him.
And despite the Church being accused of "keeping people in the dark", it educated the world. Western culture owes a great deal to the Church for technological, philosocical and academic advances. Even Luther was educated by the Cathoic Church. The bible wasnt "chained down" so prevent people from reading it. It was to protect it from theft. The bible wasnt widley available to the populace because of the Catholic church. It was because of the cost of books! How does the church keep the world in the dark when the church produced the canon. The church passed on the TRADATION of the scripture being the word of God.
darn, I gotta go to work!
Great conversation this is. Ill get back with you later!
peace out.
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January 1077 King Henry the IV is forced to stand outside in the cold barefoot in penetant clothes by Pope Gregory VII in order to gain his forgiveness over a bitter argument.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/g7-ban1.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07230a.htm
Reformation: John Tetzel sells indulgences to get people out of purgatory in order to make money for the church. (Giving people fear of not having salvation or relatives saved and years in purgatory if they don't comply?)
Revolutionaries being named heretics and burned at the stake. (Public execution is not a means of social control???? I sure would be scared to say anything against the church if it meant death.)
I'm sure u'd agree that these things are not exactly 'good times.' You can probly go walk over to your college and ask them for a dozen other reasons. As for the price of books being too high? Well if it wasn't for the bible being translated by people such as martin luther, the germans couldn't read nor other germanic groups. Secondly the Church was responsible for the lack of bibles being available. Bibles were handwritten for so long by monks making them costly for production because just one could take thousands of man hours. Enter Johann Gutenberg in 1452 who began the creation of the Gutenberg Press! This was found by the Church to be sacrilege which has nothing to do with theft, but later would allow it if he left certain parts blank for monks to illuminate.(Money accumulation) Also who incidently would be responsible for the printing of indulgences. (Money accumulation)
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