What's the Population of Panem?

[penfold_x]

This question is closely related to the geography of Panem, but unfortunately, we don't get as many clues to base speculation on, especially if you define canon narrowly. We know from the first chapter of The Hunger Games that there are about eight thousand people in District Twelve. Katniss tells us that the Capitol is a city, and speaks about

Comments

[penfold_x]

I certainly take your point about the Capitol prioritizing control over efficiency. The problem I run into is that mechanization for the resource districts, I think, makes a huge difference in the amount of workers it takes to sustain Panem because some of the labor saving devices would take ten or twenty or more times the number of people to perform the same work without modern tools. The number of people dedicated to farming would, I think, need to skyrocket (I'm not sure what the upper threshold is for people who can be supported by traditional methods, but I think some African countries still have difficulty producing enough food to feed their populations because of the lack of mechanization). Maybe it is possible to maintain a large population with these means, though I think that would also mean that the casualties of the rebellion went into the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, which... I know they're not real, but it still gives me shivers.

I'm guessing that the Capitol manages to maintain control by setting insane production targets that don't allow for a lot of leisure time--twelve hour shifts, skimping on equipment where possible (especially in the area of safety), child labor--and uses technology only where the gains in productivity outweigh the possible risks , and can be monitored (eg, like the nightvision goggles used in Eleven to harvest at night).

I'm kind of sad that we never got to see the underbelly of the Capitol (though idk when) because I think that could neat.

Oh yeah, definitely! That's one reason I have the population in the Capitol so high. To maintain everything they have, they'll need lots of construction workers, streetsweepers, housecleaners, etc. I'd love to know how the people at the bottom of the pile in the Capitol got there, and how they feel about the rebellion (and whether the rebellion recognizes them).

[lorata]

Thaaaaaat makes sense. Make up for what SHOULD free up workers for other things by making quotas insane and/or any other number of stupid demands. You can also do a lot of damage by insisting that all crop be given over with no seed held back to feed the family/protect against poor yields, or to reduce costs for next year's sowing. See: Monsanto forcing farmers to buy back their own crops for personal use and/or seeds to plant next year. (Actually just look at Monsanto, period...) You're right, there's tons of precedent for using modern methods to impoverish people and make everything awful/dependent on 'benefactors' and/or hamper autonomy. Hrm.

Ugh now I'm thinking about Monsanto. >>>>(

I'd love to ... whether the rebellion recognizes them.

Indeed eh?

[kawuli]

NEVER THINK ABOUT MONSANTO

I drove past a Monsanto seed plant every time i visited my parents from Lansing and every time I thought "firebombs, that's what I need"

ETA: IN RELEVANT COMMENTS,

I don't think Panem farming would be organized around "families", but more idk along the lines of collective farms in Maoist China or the USSR. And we know how well those work.........

Panem agriculture, depending on how much oil and natural gas you think is around at this point (oh and also phosphorous most of which now is in Morocco actually), may be incredibly reliant on huge spaces to make up for low yields if fertilizer doses have to be lower.

[lorata]

T once asked me for worldbuilding help about an evil corporation and I responded with like an hour's worth of material, and when she was done taking pages of notes she was like "how did you come up with that?" and I was like I DIDN'T HAVE TO >(

[penfold_x]

(oh and also phosphorous most of which now is in Morocco actually)

*pulls hair*

[kawuli]

actually this one is probably solvable because most great plains soils are not terribly P deficient and you can get a lot of it from manure/animal byproducts (organic sources include "fish emulsion" which is VILE smelling, and bone meal).

[this random agricultural fact you probably didn't need to know brought to you by my scattered brain]

[penfold_x]

My guess is no. :( Which is really sad because I can imagine there are levels of real deprivation in the bottom-most rungs of Capitol society. But I don't think the rebels would have any obvious way of seeing that, since what they know of the Capitol is what they see on television. The avoxes are obvious victims, but what about the other household servants/people who work on loading docks/prep cooks/janitors?

[lorata]

It's also pretty easy to assume that the Avoxes who couldn't be rescued would be assumed willing casualties, given the attitudes that the rebels put forth. "I'd rather be dead than taken" and all that jazz.

[kawuli]

Yeah see this is where I think postwar Panem could get really really messy, because "The Capitol is the Enemy" is all well and good if you're talking about the upper crust, but you can't assume every person living there is evil, especially if, as you have it, it's half the country's population.

[penfold_x]

Yeah, this is why my post-MJ headcanon is so rocky. I can easily see a lot of low level conflict continuing, and when people are facing deprivation, a tendency to blame some group for the problem. (Beetee's not paranoid, he's just well informed)

By the by, I think, if the rebels are in anyway fair, there will wind up being prosecutions of some of their soldiers, too. I don't think there's anyway the rebels took the Capitol without committing some rapes or other atrocities. That's just not how war works, anywhere.

[kawuli]

Yes, I think there pretty much have to be some kind of "Truth and Reconciliation" type hearings, and it has to be for everyone, not just the Capitol.

Testifying in said hearings is not fun for anyone but it's important for everyone to hear what happened since the whole country was built around lies for so long.