"Islanded in a Stream of Stars" follow-up (predictably all about Laura)

[pellucid]

So I said yesterday I wasn't going to say more about the episode, but I have something of a compulsive need to make myself clear--perhaps especially when I see people reacting to things I've said in a way that suggests to me I haven't been clear enough.

Comments

[asta77]

Well, I agree with you and don't feel we are in the minority. I have read takes on the episode where people either briefly touched upon Laura's scenes or skipped discussing them all together, but those individuals don't fangirl Laura as we do.

There is the disappointment of Earth thread, the cancer thread, and the relationship with Bill thread. How are these influences working together to motivate her actions?

This is a good point because it feels as if, in the back half of the season, Laura has been split into several different characters and which character we see depends on what particular aspect of the arc they are tackling that week. You know I adored the scene between Laura and Lee in 'No Exit'. It was a very in-character scene for both and was need to establish what kind of government they would have going forward after the slaughter of the Quorum. It was also needed to tie up loose ends and lay foundation for the episodes that followed, but we were seeing a Laura we hadn't seen in the weeks prior and one we haven't seen since. I understand that due to declining health she has deferred the running of the civilian government to Lee, but we haven't seen Laura come to gripes with her life coming to a close. Instead, we see her using what strength and time she has left to prop up Adama.

And though I loathe Adama and think Laura could do better, I want her to have some happiness if her life. I want that for all the characters (well, maybe not Adama ;). So, if she loves Adama, so be it, and if she feels as if she's made *a* home with him, OK, but to have her say, "I don't think I've ever felt truly at home until these last few months here with you", does negate, to me, a lot of what we believed about Laura, but also doesn't make sense with the Laura we know. On Caprica she had work that she loved doing. She had a long affair with Adar (who she must have loved at some point). And when the attacks came, she saved humanity from the brink of extinction. She's sacrificed ideals and part of her soul for what she believed to be the greater good. But since earth didn't turn out to be their salvation, she's hid out on Galactica and passed the presidency to Lee, and has found the true meaning of home, happiness, and fulfillment with a barely functioning boyfriend who can no longer be found without a drink in his hand. I just cannot accept this.

[pellucid]

The question of who is in the minority is so interesting! Everyone (except you!) seems to be taking the defensive stance, no matter which side of the question they're coming down on. I've seen the "I know I'm in the minority, but..." line coming from people who disagree with me, and obviously I've also used it myself. At least among the places I've been reading--which is in no way exhaustive, obviously--I'm still feeling very much in the minority. Among the opinions of the more A/R-slanted folks I've read, only Chaila seems to agree with me, and even among non-A/R people (though not anti-A/R people like you and Becka, and I suspect that's a key distinction) there seems to be a range of "but at least she's happy" to "what??? who are the crazy people who didn't like that scene?"

So we're among the majority within the Laura/Lee crowd, the femslash crowd (I would imagine, anyway; I haven't read anyone but runawaynun on the subject), and the, uh, me and Chaila crowd! Not so sure about everyone else, though... Nor do I have any idea how one would actually measure such a thing.

But yes, I agree rather emphatically with everything you say here, obviously. It would have been so easy to tweak that scene to make it not so awful--making A home, as you say, perhaps. Or maybe she could have gone with the cabin thought, and have her think about rest and peace and then sort of wish she could invite Bill to join her or something. Because I would love for her to have some happiness, and for a long time I've thought that this relationship held some possibility of that for both of them, but the execution of it has just been appalling!!!

I could perhaps have seen the show highlighting the relationship like this if the point were to show two incredibly broken people who were just hanging on to each other because this was all they had left at this point--that makes sense to me for each of them individually (Bill with the perpetual breakdowns, Laura with the cancer) and for them both together (this was never an epic love; these were just two people who didn't even like each other very much but grew to rely on each other and eventually to care for one another in untenable circumstances). And that's where I thought they were going with it back in "A Disquiet." But to suggest that this relationship, like this, is not just fulfilling but MORE FULFILLING FOR LAURA THAN ANYTHING BEFORE IT???????? Please.

[beccatoria]

Just butting in to say that I'm not particularly involved in the femslash scene but a bunch of my friends are and as far as I can tell they are also Not Happy. So yeah, the alternashippers around Laura are definitely not feeling this, but I wouldn't like to comment on the A/R crowd because I know even less about them than I know about the K/L crowd (it's amazing how much of this fandom I've managed to completely and accidentally avoid, you know...) so I'd trust your instinct on that one. Especially since shippers tend to be forgiving of dodginess if it's at least dodginess in service to the ship. /judgementalisms.

I guess my instinct would be to say that you and Chaila are Laura fans who happened to like a romantic relationship with Bill best of her romantic options rather than coming to the show from a wholesale A/R perspective? (Although I would also say that the little I have seen of A/R shippery suggests to me that Laura is the more appreciated character there, though this could just be my own blinding bias; that said, I still think there could be a difference in terms of approach.)

Maybe the cancer's just gone to her brain and she can no longer remember where she used to live. I mean really. She was probably pushing fifty, and was a member of the political cabinets of twelve worlds and she only ever lived in two houses her whole life?

(Yes I know she was probably not being literal. I don't care. I call brain damage. Let's plug her into Galactica like the hybrid. She'd be cooler like that than she is now, and then Bill could REALLY love the damn ship more than ANYTHING ELSE EVER.)

[pellucid]

I call brain damage. Let's plug her into Galactica like the hybrid. She'd be cooler like that than she is now, and then Bill could REALLY love the damn ship more than ANYTHING ELSE EVER.

I can't decide if this makes me want to LAUGH or CRY!!!!!!!! A little of both, perhaps.

The question of the A/R crowd is...kind of weird. My read on the group, generally, was that the great mass of them, like the great mass of most groups of shippers once the group reaches a particular critical mass, are kind of crazy in the way that fanatical shippers are. Not better or worse than any other group of shippers, but fanatical shippers nonetheless. And then there was this other group, to which I suppose I more or less belonged, that was a bit less fanatical, a bit more thinky, a bit more elitist, etc. What seems to have happened during 4.5 is the fragmentation of that smaller group between some people (even people whose views I thought I totally agreed with, and then it turns out we were operating on slightly different premises all along, and those differences have only now become apparent) who are still pleased with the direction things have gone and those of us who aren't. And those of us who aren't seems to be quite a small group, indeed: Chaila and me, primarily. Probably also whatever_lj. Probably a few other people here and there that I don't really know so well. And as of the comments below, it seems that Chaila and I are now self-identifying as former A/R shippers. So, y'know, thanks for that, too, show.

But that's just my read on things, and someone sitting in a different position within the broader A/R community might have a totally different take on it.

I guess my instinct would be to say that you and Chaila are Laura fans who happened to like a romantic relationship with Bill best of her romantic options rather than coming to the show from a wholesale A/R perspective?

Not sure how Chaila would respond to this, but I would disagree a bit for myself. I am a Laura fan primarily, to be sure. But fairly early on--LONG before I shipped them in any kind of a romantic way--I became intrigued by the interactions between Laura and Bill. I liked the power dynamics, the balance, the push and pull, the friction between two people trying to work together and against each other. So it was very much the relationship--in the broadest sense of that word--that pulled me in, and it wasn't until they were sitting under the tarp during "Home, part 2" that I first started to think about any kind of romance between them. And then somewhere during the Pegasus arc I actually started "shipping" them. Even still, though, I always wanted the romance secondary to everything else, merely one facet of all the many, many things these characters were to one another. I was never looking for a romantic option for Laura, but the idea of Bill and Laura together in that way seemed to grow organically out of the rest of their relationship.

And now it has usurped the rest of their relationship and erased all the maturity and complexity that drew me to them in the first place, and so I am done. It makes me almost as sad to lose the relationship as it does to lose Laura, though, because it really has been one of my favorite aspects of the show--whether they hated each other or defied each other or flirted with each other--since that very first post-apocalyptic conversation in the mini.

[pellucid]

I have no precedent for breaking up with a ship, so I have no idea! Bah! ;)

flirting/plotting assassination/dying combo, I think

Yes, totally this.

I wasn't really annoyed at myself for shipping them, but I was quickly annoyed with all impulses to treat them in a fluffy, traditionally shippy way--impulses that I didn't have very much of at all, but that were obviously abundant in other areas of fandom. "Can't you see they're not schmoopy???" I wanted to say. "They're mature and complex and have all this stuff going on that isn't at all about romance!!!" *headdesk* Yeah, thanks for that, show.

[beccatoria]

Blah, I think I expressed myself unclearly. I do know that the relationship is very important to you. I should not have put the emphasis so firmly on the romance aspect. What I think I meant was, you liked Laura first, and then - early though it may have been - came to love her relationship (in any form) with Bill Adama as a fascinating thread of the show. But you didn't love Bill Adama first? Whereas I think for many 'shippers, it was the relationship itself that they found more compelling than either character? But I don't know. I'm babbling now.

I guess what I'm really trying to get at is just a different way of saying what you said. The integrity of Laura's characterisation is more important to you than a relationship at any price, and that doesn't seem to be true for some others.

[pellucid]

You know, I can't remember what my opinion of Bill Adama, by himself, was at the beginning. I think that by the time I was thinking of him much at all, it was always in relation to Laura. My impression of him was generally favorable until season 3, though. Then I started to get annoyed with the guilt complex and the way he made everything All About Him, but at the same time started to develop the "oh, poor woobie Bill; he just can't help himself" theory. And now I'm just fully over into the "would you just SHUT UP AND GO AWAY???" camp. Aren't you glad you didn't have to go through all those stages and can just be consistent in your hate? ;)

As for the general run of shippers, yes, I do think there's a certain vision of the relationship itself, and also of the characters in the relationship that I just don't share, and never did. I find the characterization of Laura and Bill in many shippy fics to be unrecognizable: A/R fics from Laura's pov that get her right, imho, are quite rare. So I'd guess that some of the general run of shippers would say that the characters are as important as the relationship, but the characters as they see them are not the characters as I see them. Or something. I really don't know. Lots of people do seem to like stereotypes, though...

[beccatoria]

Believe it or not, I liked Bill Adama once upon a time. I watched the mini series and fell in love with Laura, and then I rewatched with a friend who immediately 'shipped Bill and Laura (and she's not generally a 'shipper) and I was like, okay, yeah, I can get on board with that. Something about the early hallway scene where he's telling her that there will be NO networks on his ship and she's just like, "Okay, yes Sir," in a way that's...she's totally conceeding the point but she makes that language her own and she manages to let him have his way without either being indulgent or confrontational in a way I just loved.

I loved the Bill Adama who made ethical points about using the military as a police force.

My 'shipping didn't really switch from A/R to L/L until the mutiny when I saw how awesome they were together (before I'd loved them together but hadn't quite connected it could be romantic) and when I started feeling disillusioned with Adama and his behaviour. I didn't full on start hating the guy though until the opening episodes of season three. About the same time I fell in love with Tigh. Perhaps there is just room for only one crazy old man in my heart at a time...

/Not really to do with any of this. But there you have it. ONCE I TOO 'SHIPPED THEM.

[whatever_lj]

Yes, I'm with you, Pellucid.

I'm a pretty old broad for fandom, you know -- or actually, how would you know? I'm 43.

I think I've been so obsessed with Laura in part because of my age. It was good to see a woman who is only about a chapter ahead of me in the saga of life, and who is running the show, doing things her own way, making her very tough decisions without handwringing. Still vibrant and viable and important. And no saint.

And yes, she has a man in her life (Adama) -- but while he is a figure in her life, he wasn't (sad past tense) the reason or the excuse for her actions. They had a good, strong, mature, comfortable, complex partnership -- and it was great to watch.

Not no more.

[pellucid]

I'm not all that close to Laura's age (I'm 28, incidentally), but I nevertheless very much appreciated her as this mature, accomplished, complex, middle-aged woman. And while I was obviously okay, until recently, with the idea of her having a relationship with Bill, part of what I adored about her was the fact that there was never any suggestion that she was somehow odd or lacking because she was single and had no children. She could have this relationship, and it would add something to her life, but she didn't need it, and she wasn't lacking anything without it.

Or so I thought. I just...can't believe they went there. I mean, I can, because obviously it's the same tired stereotype, but I didn't think they would do this to Laura.

[asta77]

This afternoon I saw that people on both sides were declaring themselves in the minority and I was amused. Actually, we're probably all in the minority since quite a few people don't care about Laura's storyline at all.

So we're among the majority within the Laura/Lee crowd

Well, obviously, because if she was with Lee this would be a non-issue! ;) (And I'm only half kidding.)

but the execution of it has just been appalling!!!

As you say I'm anti-A/R, but I resigned myself to it as well as L/K long ago. And I'm very much OK with how they've depicted L/K this season. Not only have their actions and discussions been in character, I've seen emotional growth on both their parts. So, if they can handle the two of them and their relationship well, then why have they botched A/R so badly? I can see your point about hanging on to each other because it's all they have left and, let's face it, the dating pool is pretty small, but I'm not exactly pleased with the thought of Laura settling either. Adama I feel is damn lucky to have her. But maybe I'm projecting my own views in that I'd rather be alone than in what I perceive to be a bad and one sided relationship. I'm both looking forward to and dreading the podcast and what Ron has to say about this.

[pellucid]

I wonder if some of the trouble, too, has been the total disconnect between the way they've been writing each of these characters lately. Bill is falling apart. He's barely functional. Surely this is something they're doing on purpose in order to show the strain of...everything. And although I think it's all been really over the top, I don't object to that characterization per se; he has been under an incredible amount of strain for a long time, and it makes sense that it's taking its toll.

Except that they need to realize that this does not make Bill attractive or sympathetic. At all. And if he's not supposed to be attractive or sympathetic, then fine, but if he is, there's a big problem. And either way, it needs to be clear what Laura sees in him at this point. If she's claiming that this relationship is making her happy and fulfilled then WHY???? And they're not being terribly consistent on this point, either: there was the scene in "Deadlock" when she rolls her eyes at him pulling out the flask, which seems like a clear indication that she doesn't approve of this falling apart that he's doing, but then pretty much the next time we see them together, it's this scene.

What I thought I was seeing through ADFMS was a relationship that had been ongoing for some time, hearts and lives already quite entangled before the Earth reveal, and then after "Revelations" and their mutual ways of breaking down, they just sort of keep holding on to each other because there's consistency and comfort there. But that this isn't meant to be seen as healthy or fulfilled or the blooming of some wonderful new love out of the ashes of this journey but rather as two very tired, very broken people holding on to one another because it's the only thing they can do at this point. And while that story would have disappointed me in some ways because it's not what I wanted for Laura (whom I would prefer to be always awesome!), it's a story that would at least have made a lot of sense.

Instead we got...this. Which is not only everything I did NOT want to see from this relationship, but it just doesn't make any sense at all to me--for who these characters were in the past, for the way their relationship developed, for the way they're being characterized now. It's like the writers sat down with a book of cliches about romantic relationships and just started pasting them on at random.

And as you point out about Lee/Kara, it's not like they don't know how to do better. Even Helo/Athena, poster child for happy-but-bland relationships, is more complex and interesting than Adama/Roslin right now. *sigh*