Passing observation on SPN 4.14 Sex and Violence
There's a handy little YouTube clip chronicling Dean's hallucinations while suffering from ghost sickness. I hadn't watched 4.06 since it aired, really, so I figured I'd revisit some of the bits I liked.
And then I noticed some rather disturbing echoes of this ep in 4.14.
( Spoilers for all aired episodes )
And then I noticed some rather disturbing echoes of this ep in 4.14.
( Spoilers for all aired episodes )
I like what you said about Sam refusing to be a passenger in his own life, but I also believe that's been a theme for him since day one. It's just lately he's coming up against forces so much bigger than he is, it's almost impossible to maintain control of his own destiny.
If Dean starts becoming more pro-active and assertive in his own life, picking actual GOALS in this war, rather than just running from hunt to random hunt, maybe Sam would feel more like he's got a partner
It occurs to me that the Boyz are pretty much in the same place they were at the beginning of season two. (Colt's gone, no leads on Azazel's whereabouts, no bargaining power, no nothing.) This time, Dean believes they can't go after Lilith without Sam risking his soul, they don't know where she is or where/what the seals are, which seals she'll go after... They got nothing. So in the meantime, the one thing Dean can do - fix the car/save some people - is what he's going to throw himself into.
Sam doesn't have any leads on Lilith/apocalypse either. Elsewise he wouldn't still be here.
So I agree with you that Sam wants Dean to pick actual goals, and that it would go a long way toward them working as a team again. But I don't think the problem is really that Dean has no goals. I think it's more that his goals aren't Sam's. Miles vary, of course.
This last ep hinted at myriad ways they could end up divided, and it's tragic to think it could happen because each really just wants the other safe. *gloom*
This! Right here! They both have an unerring tendency to make unilateral decisions and sacrifice even their own relationship when it comes to ensuring each other's welfare. It's DANGEROUS.
Whew.
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I disagree with this. We've seen no evidence Dean is avoiding the Apocalypse. He just isn't actively searching it out and seeing as HE is the one who was pulled from Hell, I don't think Dean NEEDS to actively search it out. They'll let him know when they want him. Until then there is no reason they should not continue hunting. Seriously just because Sam thinks it's important doesn't mean it is, he's not the be a
I'd make the important point that in "It's the Great Pumpkin", it was not Lilith actively breaking a seal, it was Samhain. It was something that started out as a seemingly normal hunt. They didn't save the seal but the point is, they were there because of a normal hunt. Who is to say other seals are not on normal hunts? Who is to say Dean and Sam are not doing exactly what they should be taking on these 'Normal" hunting jobs.
Why the assumption that they need to be "actively" searching for the Apocalypse or the seals?
I am beginning to think the only thing that would get Sam "back in line" would be if Dean started taking charge of *himself.* Which is really what Sam has been after Dean to do, all his life.
What Sam has wants is for Dean to follow him like he followed John, not for Dean. He's wanted that since season 1. He would say "you should think for yourself" but his ultimate goal was for Dean to agree with Sam and disagree with John. Look at Asylum, Sam starts that whole fight over the coordinates and ultimately the only reason for it is that Sam didn't want to follow the coordinates because they were sent by John. They had no leads whatsoever on John. Those coordinates were the only even possible clue.
Sam argued with Dean not because following the coordinates was wrong, not because it kept them from finding John(because without having hindsight, those coordinates were the closest thing they had to a clue in months and so any good investigator would have followed them) but because he wanted Dean to say "Dad's wrong, you're right, I'll do what you want Sam". This has happened more than once during the course of the show and that is still what Sam wants here.
Sam doesn't want Dean to "think for himself" unless thinking for himself means following Sam's lead.
I'd point out that Dean was doing that in Season 3, "taking charge of himself". And SAM is the one who pulled him back into their co-dependecy with guilt trips about how he wants his brother back and how he knows Dean's weak(because ultimately that is what that speech in FB was about, Dean's weaknesses) and then about how it's DEAN's fault that Sam can't find a way to save him. The fact is Dean was breaking from that, sure he was going to Hell but none the less prior to going to Hell he was letting go, saying "Sam can take care of himself", encouraging Sam to do so, focusing on himself a little more.
Sam's ever bit as co-dependent as Dean, in fact I think he's more so at this point, he's just transferred that co-dependency onto 3rd person. Ruby. Why? Because he can be in charge with Ruby, he can give her orders and she'll do whatever he wants. He doesn't need to worry about showing her respect. She tells him exactly what he wants to hear about how special he is and how he's the only one who can do this. On Dean he takes out all his frustrations because Sam can't take responsibility for his own failures, he's always shown an inability to do that so he transfers them to Dean.
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I agree with you on this one. Considering Sam's outburst to Ruby; that he doesn't know where to start or where to find the seals, it is only natural that they fall back on to what works: hunting. It was during the course of hunting that John picked up the YED's trail, it was while hunting that Dean understands the warning John imparted regarding Sam; it is clear that hunting is the way for them to get the answers and not just for the sake of saving people.
What Sam has wants is for Dean to follow him like he followed John, not for Dean.
*nods vehemently.* Like most youngest children, Sam wants to be the focus and Dean's unswerving obedience to John is in the way of this. He was struggling to be the centre for Dean and for Dean to submit to his wants before John's. Some of his reactions (e.g. like leaving for California during Scarecrow) is similar to the tantrum and sulks characteristic of many youngest children.
Your reference to both Dean and Sam's co-dependency on each other is definitely food for thought. It is characteristic of many family relationship whereby all parties involved are struggling for dominance and desiring their wants to be serviced first as well as the manipulations to get the outcome of their desire.
On Dean he takes out all his frustrations because Sam can't take responsibility for his own failures, he's always shown an inability to do that so he transfers them to Dean.
I would beg to differ on this one, though, because I see Sam's outburst as similar to the reaction of a caregiver of a terminally ill person. In this case, Dean's impending descend to hell and the way he dealt with it (denial, anger, bargaining, acceptance etc) is a parallel of someone who is, well, dying. The caregiver has love, deep and abiding, for the ill person, but sometimes the stress of being the caregiver overcomes them. There is anger, frustration and resentment a-brewing while they go through their days. I felt that Sam's anger at his failure is also similar to the anger that a caregiver feels when the loved one fails and dies. After all the fruitless effort, nothing to show for it. It is not logical to resent the ill person, but there is it.
Sam would also resent the fact of Dean dying and going (and had gone) to hell for him: he didn't ask for the sacrifice and yet he has to deal with the aftermath. No doubt he is grateful to be alive but at some level he would probably think it would have been easier if Dean would have just left well alone. This is pretty normal. Thus, the transfer of responsibility of his failure to Dean is rather inaccurate.
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Also this:
So I agree with you that Sam wants Dean to pick actual goals, and that it would go a long way toward them working as a team again. But I don't think the problem is really that Dean has no goals. I think it's more that his goals aren't Sam's. Miles vary, of course.
Oh, I agree. Being thinky in great haste has its pitfalls, not the least being that I failed to clarify that I was attempting to voice Sam's opinion or perspective on Dean, not mine. *I* don't think Dean has no goals, but I do think he's been flailing a bit, simply by the sheer *pace* he's apparently been setting. However, I agree that in lieu of any clues or leads on Lilith, or from the angels, Dean has little recourse but to carry on saving people, hunting things. It's that or sit around Bobby's being gloomy and bored, and Dean don't do well at bored. *G*
So yeah. It's *Sam* whom I think is getting frustrated and tired of wating for fate to come to him, and who thinks Dean is just ... spinning his wheels. I don't quite share Sam's opinions on all things, though. ;-)
Must go shower now. Is tired self. Thanks for thinking with me! :-)
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Ohhhhhh. :) Okay, that makes more sense now.
I do think he's been flailing a bit, simply by the sheer *pace* he's apparently been setting.
I agree with this, very strongly. I don't know what the usual recovery time is after a forty-year stint in hell, but Dean is certainly taking a few months to get his balance again. If he were almost anyone else, that would be understandable and forgivable. Unfortunately for him, he's a Winchester with an apocalypse and an emotionally damaged brother depending on him to be Superman.
Dean's current plan, inasmuch as he has one, seems to be to keep doing his job until Lilith/Seals/Lucifer become an immediate problem again. It's reactive as opposed to Sam's proactive - not unlike his attitude throughout season two.
Whee, thinky! <3 <3 <3
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My thought exactly. Therein may lie the conflict: Sam has just drawn his line in the sand about being reactive vs proactive, and Dean doesn't see the point. Especially if proactive-ness involves trusting intel from Ruby!
But Sam ... I think his drive to Get Lilith is well into the "obsession" phase, now, and every crack we see in Dean's armor, every moment of frailty, every nightmare and flashback and hit off the whiskey flask simply adds fuel to Sam's internal fire. I can't imagine the burden of guilt he labors under, and we all know that guilt is often just a half-step away from resentment and anger ...
YAY, thinky! *G*
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