Hey, I should've been more careful in how I worded that. I did not mean to say that I think Catholicism is a cult. I definitely don't believe that. A lot of people whose beliefs are closely aligned with mine do believe something like that...I'm not one of those people, and I should have worded that comment differently.
I definitely agree that it's not child abuse to raise your child according to your religious beliefs, on principle. My parents raised me Jewish, and I'm glad they did. I think it can definitely be a really good thing to raise your child according to your religious beliefs. I don't believe that it is child abuse to raise a child as a Catholic. I do believe that if the beliefs you are raising your child by, no matter what religion they're from, are going to severely hinder that child's physical or emotional health...then that is abusive. For example, if a child were raised to believe that they should go around shooting people who smell funny, and then that child grows up and goes around shooting people who smell funny, I'd consider that person to have had an abusive childhood. And if a whole bunch of adults who believed that you should shoot people who smell funny got together to start a community where everyone followed those religious beliefs, and those people were planning to have their children live in their community and teach them to believe the same things, I would consider that community one that would be abusive to children and would expect that children not live there.
I actually have to go entertain some guests right now, so I just want to stick on the point that I'm NOT saying I think Catholicism is the same as teaching kids that they should shoot people who smell funny...I'm just stopping in the middle of that analogy to go entertain the 35 college administrators who just appeared in my living room. ;-)
I apologize. I get weird about my religion. The Church and I have some (relatively major) doctrinal issues to work out but I went through 13 years of schooling in their hands... I know a LOT about it and I love to analyze and compare. It's sort of like that brother that drives you crazy. You can tease him, bug him, make fun of him but you still want him to be untouchable...
I'm sorry.
I understand that it's not in general. I will go reread the article but what, in your opinion, is going to "severely hinder that child's physical or emotional health"?
Hehe, no worries. I have some huge issues with particular Jewish beliefs that most people of my religious and cultural background are appalled by. I don't, for example, believe that Jews had a "right" to live in Palestine. I don't think Jews are "bad people" for being there, and I don't think they should be forced out at this point since they're already there...but I don't think the fact that the Jewish religion teaches that the land of Israel/Palestine is "our land" is a good enough reason for us to be there. And, way more on topic, I don't believe that male children should be circumsized. The Jewish religion teaches that male children must be circumsized, and I consider that to be a religious teaching that is not in the best interest of children and that parents should not force on their children. If their child grows up and wants to have his foreskin chopped off, that's his decision.
Now, to directly answer your question: I don't know if I would say that every child who grows up in that community would be severely damaged to such a degree that I would identify the upbringing as abusive. (I don't know that I would say that it wasn't, either...but I'm not making that kind of statement about it at this moment.) However, I think it's a very bad idea for parents to send negative messages to their children about sexuality, in general. It's okay for parents to believe you should wait till you're older to have sex, and I definitely think parents should teach their children about the risks of sexual activity (pregnancy, STDs, regretting it afterward, mixing up "yes" and "no"...), and after that point I'd say there's a lot of grey area about what's moral or immoral to tell your child, but I also know that the Catholic religion includes teaching children that homosexuality is bad. So, what will happen in this community to gay children? I can't imagine the community treating those children in a way that WON'T severely hinder their emotional health. Maybe that's me making an assumption about Catholicism, and if you can tell me a way that a whole community which believes that homosexuals are sinners and are going to hell could potentially not be damaging to a gay child, I'd be open to hearing that...but I can't imagine it.
And that's only talking about the children who are gay, and not even beginning to go into the issues that pretty much any children who get dangerous messages about their genders or sexuality will face.
Most of my energy has been spent on my response below, so I'll make this one short.
Maybe that's me making an assumption about Catholicism, and if you can tell me a way that a whole community which believes that homosexuals are sinners and are going to hell could potentially not be damaging to a gay child, I'd be open to hearing that...but I can't imagine it.
That is an assumption. Like just about every other religion, people tend to pick and choose what they believe and follow, and what they teach to their children. Do you think every Catholic grandma is going to tell her grief-stricken 5-year-old grandchild whose puppy just got run over that "The Church says that animals don't go to Heaven, so you'll never see Sparky again"? Of course not. Not all Catholics believe that birth control is immoral or that homosexuality is bad, either.
All right, time for a real life example. I had a nun (granted, she was a real psycho, and not representative of most nuns I know, who tend to be very sweet) tell me when I was little that if I didn't go to Mass on every Holy Day of Obligation (things like Easter, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday), that I would go to Hell. Then I realized that my parents worked, and didn't get to go to Mass on every one of those days, and I got scared that they would go to Hell. That fear lasted until I reasoned that God wouldn't doom my parents, and every other average person on the street, just because they missed a Mass. So, what she said must have been pretty bogus... I reasoned this out when I was six years old or so. Being taught something IS NOT the same as being brainwashed.
I think there is a difference between growing up in a family that teaches you that and growing up in an isolated community that teaches you that.
But I'm re-reading the article, and although I don't know where exactly this place is located in relation to other towns in Florida, it doesn't actually sound like it would be totally isolated. And now that I'm thinking about it a little harder...even if it were isolated, I suppose it wouldn't be that different from Orthodox Jews having isolated communities and raising their kids that way. I'm going to think about this some more...I may come away from that thinking that Orthodox Jews shouldn't raise their kids that way either, or I may come away from that feeling more sympathetic to this community's idea, or maybe some of both. ;-)
I know all Catholics don't believe birth control is immoral or that homosexuality is bad, and I know I'm making the assumption that this community would be anti-homosexuality based on the statements in this article that they are anti-birth control, anti-pornography, and anti-abortion. And, truthfully, now that I'm examining why I came up feeling so strongly about this, it's strongly based on the assumption that the community is anti-homosexuality. I do think it's immoral to raise your child to believe that homosexuality is wrong, and I think that raising a child that way could very likely be an emotionally abusive situation especially if the child is gay.
But you're definitely right that I need to be giving children more credit for being able to figure stuff out for themselves. It just scares the crap outta me that so many children never do figure those things out, and then they grow up to be adults who hate gays and want to ban abortion, and I feel powerless to do anything about that sometimes.
Let's start with the homosexuality issue because, to be perfectly honest, I'm intensely proud of the Church's ability to accept facets. I'm not pulling out my chatechism again for the moment unless you really want to read it but the teaching is that
1. Homosexuality is scientifically natural. Homosexuals do not choose to feel this way and it is acceptable on a natural level.
2. Marriage is for the sole purpose of procreation. As a result, homosexual couples cannot get married. They can't produce kids, they can't get married. And don't talk to me about the options they have to have their own kid. They can't have sex and make babies. IVF and other methods are unacceptable (see farther down in this loooong debate).
3. As they cannot be wed, they cannot engage in any sort of sexuality. As for all people, homosexuals are required to live a chaste life. Chastity means you engage in sexuality as allowed you by your station. If you're single, one of the religious, or such : No sex. No pre-marital sex. If you're married it's no extra-marital sex.
Now, if you look at that it makes a lot of sense. Sure, it's not as accepting as you might like it to be but all it says is that it's fine to have those feelings and then it tells them (as it tells me) no sex. It sticks to the guns it pulls out for everything. If they changed their concept of marriage (which they won't because they've wanted babies for centuries. All the way back to when babies were lost as often as they were born and the religion needed to be furthered) then it would be fine.
Let's just focus on the amazing progress already made. Homosexuality is natural. You can't even say that all Catholics or all Jews or all Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, etc believe that. But it's what we're taught.
I think it's okay to feel connected with those beliefs for oneself. My problem is with trying to make other people believe them. If someone has chosen Catholicism as their religion, and based on those religious teachings they believe that they should not have homosexual sex, and they choose not to do so for that reason, that's fine. I don't like the idea that someone can/will get told that they're a "bad Catholic" or "not a real Catholic" if they have homosexual sex, and I do think it's wrong to tell a child that they're going to hell or that gay people are going to hell or should be condemned or are dirty/evil/bad/any of that, and I'm conflicted about how I feel about what to do about that.
I can't remember now if I already gave the circumcision example somewhere, but, here it is, it's a good example. The Jewish religion teaches that you must circumcize your male child. I believe that's wrong. I believe that it's okay to choose circumcision for yourself, not for another person. Most Jews are appalled that I believe this. Most Jews have rationalized their belief in circumcision because doctors say it's advisable to circumcise your male child. Many doctors say the opposite, too, but most Jews ignore that fact and circumcise their kids anyway. I believe that people have the right to tell Jews that their religious teaching is immoral, and to work toward getting Jews to stop circumcising their children.
Likewise, I think it's okay for individual Catholics to choose what they want to do with their own bodies, but not to tell other people what to do with theirs. I've never heard of an ex-gay movement in any religion other than Catholicism/Christianity, for one thing. And honestly, I don't think any religion should be forced/pushed/proselytized/taught-with-the-intent-of-conversion upon anybody, and that especially includes children.
I'm not sure exactly how cohesive this comment has been, since I haven't had time to go back and edit it to make sure it makes good sense, but my brother wants me to go play with him now and I never get to see the kid. ;-)
I'm a little lost right now though, because I got the other comment you posted in my email box, but it's not showing up anywhere on this thread and I can't find it! :(
I definitely agree that it's not child abuse to raise your child according to your religious beliefs, on principle. My parents raised me Jewish, and I'm glad they did. I think it can definitely be a really good thing to raise your child according to your religious beliefs. I don't believe that it is child abuse to raise a child as a Catholic. I do believe that if the beliefs you are raising your child by, no matter what religion they're from, are going to severely hinder that child's physical or emotional health...then that is abusive. For example, if a child were raised to believe that they should go around shooting people who smell funny, and then that child grows up and goes around shooting people who smell funny, I'd consider that person to have had an abusive childhood. And if a whole bunch of adults who believed that you should shoot people who smell funny got together to start a community where everyone followed those religious beliefs, and those people were planning to have their children live in their community and teach them to believe the same things, I would consider that community one that would be abusive to children and would expect that children not live there.
I actually have to go entertain some guests right now, so I just want to stick on the point that I'm NOT saying I think Catholicism is the same as teaching kids that they should shoot people who smell funny...I'm just stopping in the middle of that analogy to go entertain the 35 college administrators who just appeared in my living room. ;-)
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I'm sorry.
I understand that it's not in general. I will go reread the article but what, in your opinion, is going to "severely hinder that child's physical or emotional health"?
We WILL get to the same page on this...
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Now, to directly answer your question:
I don't know if I would say that every child who grows up in that community would be severely damaged to such a degree that I would identify the upbringing as abusive. (I don't know that I would say that it wasn't, either...but I'm not making that kind of statement about it at this moment.) However, I think it's a very bad idea for parents to send negative messages to their children about sexuality, in general. It's okay for parents to believe you should wait till you're older to have sex, and I definitely think parents should teach their children about the risks of sexual activity (pregnancy, STDs, regretting it afterward, mixing up "yes" and "no"...), and after that point I'd say there's a lot of grey area about what's moral or immoral to tell your child, but I also know that the Catholic religion includes teaching children that homosexuality is bad. So, what will happen in this community to gay children? I can't imagine the community treating those children in a way that WON'T severely hinder their emotional health. Maybe that's me making an assumption about Catholicism, and if you can tell me a way that a whole community which believes that homosexuals are sinners and are going to hell could potentially not be damaging to a gay child, I'd be open to hearing that...but I can't imagine it.
And that's only talking about the children who are gay, and not even beginning to go into the issues that pretty much any children who get dangerous messages about their genders or sexuality will face.
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Maybe that's me making an assumption about Catholicism, and if you can tell me a way that a whole community which believes that homosexuals are sinners and are going to hell could potentially not be damaging to a gay child, I'd be open to hearing that...but I can't imagine it.
That is an assumption. Like just about every other religion, people tend to pick and choose what they believe and follow, and what they teach to their children. Do you think every Catholic grandma is going to tell her grief-stricken 5-year-old grandchild whose puppy just got run over that "The Church says that animals don't go to Heaven, so you'll never see Sparky again"? Of course not. Not all Catholics believe that birth control is immoral or that homosexuality is bad, either.
All right, time for a real life example. I had a nun (granted, she was a real psycho, and not representative of most nuns I know, who tend to be very sweet) tell me when I was little that if I didn't go to Mass on every Holy Day of Obligation (things like Easter, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday), that I would go to Hell. Then I realized that my parents worked, and didn't get to go to Mass on every one of those days, and I got scared that they would go to Hell. That fear lasted until I reasoned that God wouldn't doom my parents, and every other average person on the street, just because they missed a Mass. So, what she said must have been pretty bogus... I reasoned this out when I was six years old or so. Being taught something IS NOT the same as being brainwashed.
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But I'm re-reading the article, and although I don't know where exactly this place is located in relation to other towns in Florida, it doesn't actually sound like it would be totally isolated. And now that I'm thinking about it a little harder...even if it were isolated, I suppose it wouldn't be that different from Orthodox Jews having isolated communities and raising their kids that way. I'm going to think about this some more...I may come away from that thinking that Orthodox Jews shouldn't raise their kids that way either, or I may come away from that feeling more sympathetic to this community's idea, or maybe some of both. ;-)
I know all Catholics don't believe birth control is immoral or that homosexuality is bad, and I know I'm making the assumption that this community would be anti-homosexuality based on the statements in this article that they are anti-birth control, anti-pornography, and anti-abortion. And, truthfully, now that I'm examining why I came up feeling so strongly about this, it's strongly based on the assumption that the community is anti-homosexuality. I do think it's immoral to raise your child to believe that homosexuality is wrong, and I think that raising a child that way could very likely be an emotionally abusive situation especially if the child is gay.
But you're definitely right that I need to be giving children more credit for being able to figure stuff out for themselves. It just scares the crap outta me that so many children never do figure those things out, and then they grow up to be adults who hate gays and want to ban abortion, and I feel powerless to do anything about that sometimes.
I'm really glad we're discussing this. It's intense stuff. :)
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1. Homosexuality is scientifically natural. Homosexuals do not choose to feel this way and it is acceptable on a natural level.
2. Marriage is for the sole purpose of procreation. As a result, homosexual couples cannot get married. They can't produce kids, they can't get married. And don't talk to me about the options they have to have their own kid. They can't have sex and make babies. IVF and other methods are unacceptable (see farther down in this loooong debate).
3. As they cannot be wed, they cannot engage in any sort of sexuality. As for all people, homosexuals are required to live a chaste life. Chastity means you engage in sexuality as allowed you by your station. If you're single, one of the religious, or such : No sex. No pre-marital sex. If you're married it's no extra-marital sex.
Now, if you look at that it makes a lot of sense. Sure, it's not as accepting as you might like it to be but all it says is that it's fine to have those feelings and then it tells them (as it tells me) no sex. It sticks to the guns it pulls out for everything. If they changed their concept of marriage (which they won't because they've wanted babies for centuries. All the way back to when babies were lost as often as they were born and the religion needed to be furthered) then it would be fine.
Let's just focus on the amazing progress already made. Homosexuality is natural. You can't even say that all Catholics or all Jews or all Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, etc believe that. But it's what we're taught.
we'll pause there.
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I can't remember now if I already gave the circumcision example somewhere, but, here it is, it's a good example. The Jewish religion teaches that you must circumcize your male child. I believe that's wrong. I believe that it's okay to choose circumcision for yourself, not for another person. Most Jews are appalled that I believe this. Most Jews have rationalized their belief in circumcision because doctors say it's advisable to circumcise your male child. Many doctors say the opposite, too, but most Jews ignore that fact and circumcise their kids anyway. I believe that people have the right to tell Jews that their religious teaching is immoral, and to work toward getting Jews to stop circumcising their children.
Likewise, I think it's okay for individual Catholics to choose what they want to do with their own bodies, but not to tell other people what to do with theirs. I've never heard of an ex-gay movement in any religion other than Catholicism/Christianity, for one thing. And honestly, I don't think any religion should be forced/pushed/proselytized/taught-with-the-intent-of-conversion upon anybody, and that especially includes children.
I'm not sure exactly how cohesive this comment has been, since I haven't had time to go back and edit it to make sure it makes good sense, but my brother wants me to go play with him now and I never get to see the kid. ;-)
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It's good to talk about these things. Everyone learns from it and comes out of it with more well-honed ideas. Good for growing!
I love your icon!
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