The tl;dr comment on BtVS vs. Twilight, and how creepy vampire boyfriends are still creepy.
I haven't posted for a while, haven't looked at my f-list in a while. But while I was playing catch up, I came across redbrickrose's link to Buffy vs. Edward (Twilight Remixed), read her comments section, and wrote a reply that became a tl;dr about teenage girls and creepy vampire boyfriends, and meta I keep coming across that's started to bother me. And it's not just the vampire lover thing, I've also seen the creepy obsessive romance played out without the vampire boyfriend, with characters older than teenagers, in fanfic and original works, and in non-hetero romances. (I've seen it in m/m slash fanfic and yaoi/BL in shoujo manga and what little yaoi manga I've read, and run across it in some f/f works like yuri.)
What I wanted to expand upon was what redbrickrose wrote here:
Twilight is super creepy. There are things about Buffy that I feel like this video doesn't address - mostly her relationships with Spike and Angel and those were arguably kind of creepy at points, but Buffy is such a strong character and I do feel like this video just highlighted everything that was creepy about Edward/Bella because so much of it did read, to me, as the early stages of an abusive relationship.
You make good points, but the way I see it, Buffy's strength and Bella's weakness doesn't make much of a difference in how creepy the relationship is. Both stories contain teenage girls getting into relationships with stalkery vampire boyfriends, but in BtVS the power imbalance in the relationship isn't so big so the creepy stuff doesn't come off as so bad. Buffy's a superpowered fighter, Buffy sets boundaries, Angel and Spike eventually take steps to stop or make up for their behavior.
But the problems in the relationship are still there no matter how strong/confident/whatever Buffy (or any person) is, because one partner is still engaging in creepy stalking mofo behavior. My thing is that Buffy shouldn't have to happen to be a superpowered fighter, or set boundaries such as, "Don't hurt me or my friends, don't stalk me, don't try to control me with threats/violence/intimidation/head games," or assume responsibility for making sure Angel and Spike treat her with a minimum of decent behavior. The creepiness comes from the vampire boyfriends' problematic behavior, not how their girlfriends' react to it or whether the girl is strong or weak.
...But what BtVS has over Twilight is a smaller power gap between the two partners, and arguably in some instances Buffy was the one with the edge over her vampire boyfriend. (In Buffy/Angel, Buffy was the pursuer and pushed for more, while Angel tended towards caution and let her set the pace. In Buffy/Spike, the physical violence was consensual and if anything Spike tended towards masochism and explicitly asked Buffy to hit him harder, and they were both emotionally abusive.) Oh, and BtVS explicitly links Angel and Spike's creepy stalkery behavior to soullessness; in their ensouled states the creepiness is either subtextual or they're trying to fix their earlier problematic behavior. It even links whoever does creepy icky behavior in relationships to monstrosity, since Buffy considered her behavior towards Spike as a sign that she came back wrong and inhuman. BtVS never used love as an excuse or good rationale for creepy stuff, which I've seen other works portraying that kind of relationship do.
Since I only know about Twilight secondhand, watching the vid brought home BtVS' take on teenage girls and their creepy yet sparkly vampire boyfriends. I was struck by how BtVS is not just an empowerment fantasy about the girl killed in the alley, but also an empowerment fantasy about girls in bad relationships. It's heartening, maybe subversive over the teenage girl with creepy yet sparkly boyfriend trope, but also falls short of truly dismantling it like how an action/adventure story can pay lip service to pacifism and seeking non-violent solutions while still getting entertainment off of fights and explosions.
While cut and pasting my reply, I wanted to clarify that this is less about what redbrickrose actually said, and more about me being on the subject, having read Twilight meta without having watched the actual thing itself, and read other commentary on similar works, and finally figuring out what bugged me about some of it. Some commentary talks about the creepy relationship as if the issue lies with Bella (or any character in that situation) being too weak, too passive, too like a doormat, too stupid. The heavy focus on the Bella/Buffy character's flaws or virtues doesn't make the situation more or less problematic, because the problem lies in the Edward/Angel/Spike character--the one doing the creepy controlling, stalking, threats, or violence; not the one reacting well or badly to it. The creepy stuff is still wrong no matter who it's directed at.
I say all this because I have a kink for obsessive creepy romances with optional violence, although it's not bulletproof since I have a hit/miss ratio on whether it hits my kinks or squicks me. I made myself think hard about it, because it's so problematic. (I want the issues to be addressed by the narrative, or I want the narrative to be aware of it or fake awareness of the issues. I want lip service if I can't have the issues addressed. I never want it to be portrayed as a healthy romance. I prefer it with a minimum of power imbalance. Or the power imbalance should favor the one affected by the creepy stuff, instead of the one doing the creepy stuff.)
What I wanted to expand upon was what redbrickrose wrote here:
Twilight is super creepy. There are things about Buffy that I feel like this video doesn't address - mostly her relationships with Spike and Angel and those were arguably kind of creepy at points, but Buffy is such a strong character and I do feel like this video just highlighted everything that was creepy about Edward/Bella because so much of it did read, to me, as the early stages of an abusive relationship.
You make good points, but the way I see it, Buffy's strength and Bella's weakness doesn't make much of a difference in how creepy the relationship is. Both stories contain teenage girls getting into relationships with stalkery vampire boyfriends, but in BtVS the power imbalance in the relationship isn't so big so the creepy stuff doesn't come off as so bad. Buffy's a superpowered fighter, Buffy sets boundaries, Angel and Spike eventually take steps to stop or make up for their behavior.
But the problems in the relationship are still there no matter how strong/confident/whatever Buffy (or any person) is, because one partner is still engaging in creepy stalking mofo behavior. My thing is that Buffy shouldn't have to happen to be a superpowered fighter, or set boundaries such as, "Don't hurt me or my friends, don't stalk me, don't try to control me with threats/violence/intimidation/head games," or assume responsibility for making sure Angel and Spike treat her with a minimum of decent behavior. The creepiness comes from the vampire boyfriends' problematic behavior, not how their girlfriends' react to it or whether the girl is strong or weak.
...But what BtVS has over Twilight is a smaller power gap between the two partners, and arguably in some instances Buffy was the one with the edge over her vampire boyfriend. (In Buffy/Angel, Buffy was the pursuer and pushed for more, while Angel tended towards caution and let her set the pace. In Buffy/Spike, the physical violence was consensual and if anything Spike tended towards masochism and explicitly asked Buffy to hit him harder, and they were both emotionally abusive.) Oh, and BtVS explicitly links Angel and Spike's creepy stalkery behavior to soullessness; in their ensouled states the creepiness is either subtextual or they're trying to fix their earlier problematic behavior. It even links whoever does creepy icky behavior in relationships to monstrosity, since Buffy considered her behavior towards Spike as a sign that she came back wrong and inhuman. BtVS never used love as an excuse or good rationale for creepy stuff, which I've seen other works portraying that kind of relationship do.
Since I only know about Twilight secondhand, watching the vid brought home BtVS' take on teenage girls and their creepy yet sparkly vampire boyfriends. I was struck by how BtVS is not just an empowerment fantasy about the girl killed in the alley, but also an empowerment fantasy about girls in bad relationships. It's heartening, maybe subversive over the teenage girl with creepy yet sparkly boyfriend trope, but also falls short of truly dismantling it like how an action/adventure story can pay lip service to pacifism and seeking non-violent solutions while still getting entertainment off of fights and explosions.
While cut and pasting my reply, I wanted to clarify that this is less about what redbrickrose actually said, and more about me being on the subject, having read Twilight meta without having watched the actual thing itself, and read other commentary on similar works, and finally figuring out what bugged me about some of it. Some commentary talks about the creepy relationship as if the issue lies with Bella (or any character in that situation) being too weak, too passive, too like a doormat, too stupid. The heavy focus on the Bella/Buffy character's flaws or virtues doesn't make the situation more or less problematic, because the problem lies in the Edward/Angel/Spike character--the one doing the creepy controlling, stalking, threats, or violence; not the one reacting well or badly to it. The creepy stuff is still wrong no matter who it's directed at.
I say all this because I have a kink for obsessive creepy romances with optional violence, although it's not bulletproof since I have a hit/miss ratio on whether it hits my kinks or squicks me. I made myself think hard about it, because it's so problematic. (I want the issues to be addressed by the narrative, or I want the narrative to be aware of it or fake awareness of the issues. I want lip service if I can't have the issues addressed. I never want it to be portrayed as a healthy romance. I prefer it with a minimum of power imbalance. Or the power imbalance should favor the one affected by the creepy stuff, instead of the one doing the creepy stuff.)