Thoughts on -ism and fandom
It annoys me that the discussion about -isms and policing and dogpiling on LJ always gets boiled down to two perspectives: "rich white uni girls competing over who can be the most liberal" vs. "-ist ignorant assholes who care more about their squee being harshed than injustice in the world." I do think there is a space in the middle, and I think that the lack of willingness to recognize spaces in the middle is kind of the problem.
LJ/Fandom culture as a whole strikes me as very rigid and dogmatic. This includes being rigid and dogmatic about being open-minded, even. I don't know if it's just that this is the internet or if it's that people here are more defensive than they might be in other places or what else it might be, but it seems like when you participate in this discussion, people will mentally sort you into one of the above groups, and if you agree with them or disagree with them, that's that. It's kind of amusing to me given that I've never seen a community at large so insistent on the idea of multiple subjective interpretation and fluidity, but now I am just being snide and bitter about fanficrants.
What I want to say is that in general I agree with the people who say that polite discussion, providing sources, and trying not to talk down to people and shut down conversation would probably go a long way towards everyone's happiness. But because people automatically slot you into the with-me or against-me group, this doesn't happen, and usually we see the same angry responses over and over again, applied without any real regard for the details of the situation at hand, which is a big part of why it keeps happening.
"The tone argument" is hardly a useless concept, and I know I don't usually go out of my way to talk about sexism with someone who is asking me to be "less abrasive" about it or whatever, but it isn't an excuse to be abusive to and then demonize the person you're talking to.
I absolutely agree that I shouldn't have to be burdened with educating every idiot I meet, and that expecting me to do so would be unfair and demanding and frustrating. That said, if I'm going to engage in a conversation with someone who is asking me for followup information and being relatively complacent, I can throw them a link to something to try to explain my feelings just as easily as I can macro them or throw them a link to letmegooglethatforyou and then high-five all my internet besties. If I'm going to take out the effort to reply to the post, well, I'm already halfway there, it isn't like I don't have this shit bookmarked anyway.
I do think that some people can come off as extremely insincere in their urge to appear progressive - there is a strong social pressure in some circles to present as academic, intellectual, enlightened, progressive, carefully considered. Fandom as a whole does a lot of circlejerking (we're fans, duh!) so it's not really any surprise that it would happen in those circles too. That said I think it's pretty presumptuous to state that people like this are insincere, or worse, to suggest that everyone who ever takes the time to write about this stuff is just intellectually masturbating.
I think intent matters. Intent isn't magical and it doesn't erase ignorance or hurt, but I think suggesting that intent is irrelevant is fucking ludicrous and that we as human beings are not actually built to function that and to castigate someone for suggesting that intent matters is, again, not doing anyone any favours. The whole judicial system is based on intent, hate crime legislation is based on intent. When somebody trips and falls on you it's a lot different from when someone shoves you. It's frustrating to see people try to excuse themselves with what they intended. Like the tone argument, there's a reason this is a popular comeback - but that doesn't mean that this is going to be a useful response in every conversation, and isn't trying to engage and change people's minds when we have the patience to do so more important than touting the party line?
"Check your privilege" is a kind of ironic statement. 90% of the time, "check your privilege" is not something that is said to someone who has a full working understanding of what privilege is. More often it's a condescending shutdown to someone who either doesn't know what check your privilege means, but knows that people use it as a condescending shutdown an awful lot, or to someone who has never heard those words before. It's ironic because the word privilege is an academic one that originated in academic circles and even though the information about what it is is freely available online, it's absolutely not part of the average person's lexicon and it isn't a simple and intuitive idea to grasp. It's a concept that actually flies in the face of the way we're typically taught to think about society. I don't think we should be punishing people for not being educated in this term, I don't think that we should disdainfully toss links at them rather than trying to explain what it means, and while problematic and again, frustrating, I don't think that being optimistic about how meritocratic our society is deserves scorn or malice when most of the time it's perfectly innocent.
I don't think anyone cares that much about classism. This is tied to the above, but also, it's starting to really annoy me how casually people will talk about ignorant rednecks - often in the same sentence as how -ist they are.
I don't think it's "white knighting" or "co-opting" somebody elses' oppression to be angry about injustice done in the world. Empathy is no substitute for experience but that hardly means it doesn't exist. This came up over at ontd_political and devolved into a giant clusterfuck. I think there are conversations to be had over whether or not "ally" is a useful term and I think it's important to consider the line between being upset and being obnoxious and indignant on somebody else's behalf, but I really don't think idle internet threats about beating people up are really anything to get whipped into a frenzy about and I don't think that only people of an oppressed group are allowed to be upset about something.
I am still working out how I feel about appropriation. The whole conversation is taking place from a completely America-centric and occasionally Euro-centric viewpoint that ignores the fact that Western influence is not always the product of imperialism. I think the lines on what is and isn't appropriation are kind of blurry, but like porn, you'd probably know it if you saw it if you care about these things at all. From an artistic perspective, I think taking influence from what people in other countries are doing or have done is a) not always disrespectful and b) capable of being actually pretty rad. Also, Crystal Dragon Jesus is one of my favourite tropes ever.
I think it is completely legitimate for Christians and other religious people to complain about how they are treated in fandom. I don't care if no one is banning them from being married, no one likes to be stereotyped, treated as a monolith, condescended to, and be mocked for their most closely held beliefs. It's absurd that we have more respect for things like people's kinks and ships than for their feelings about God. That is something we should be able to disagree politely on. Everyone who acts like picking on a religious kid in fandom is going to make the pope less of a jackass is fooling themselves anyway.
I'd love to have conversations about all of the above, and I really wish I could. I can with some people, the people who know me, the people who are not liable to instantly label me as not-on-their-side because I said something that falls out of step with one category or the other, but I wish I could have these conversations in public spaces at large.
I am absolutely guilty of being rude, unpleasant, hostile and quick to judge when dealing with other people who said something I didn't like. But! Stepping back, I can see how it doesn't really get anybody anywhere. I am the kind of person who can learn from taking an internet beating after I've stuck my foot in my mouth and thoroughly embarrassed myself fighting tooth and nail against what anyone else had to tell me, but I really don't think that is altogether normal, and therefore I can really sympathize with all the people who want the talk about -isms in fandom to just stop.
I don't really expect the dogpiling and the snap judgments and whatnot to be replaced by polite conversation any time soon, but I have a lot of feelings about this issue and this is sort of the only place I can put them. So... If you actually slogged through that tl;dr, thanks, I'd be interested in some feedback.
Also, have some pokemon.
LJ/Fandom culture as a whole strikes me as very rigid and dogmatic. This includes being rigid and dogmatic about being open-minded, even. I don't know if it's just that this is the internet or if it's that people here are more defensive than they might be in other places or what else it might be, but it seems like when you participate in this discussion, people will mentally sort you into one of the above groups, and if you agree with them or disagree with them, that's that. It's kind of amusing to me given that I've never seen a community at large so insistent on the idea of multiple subjective interpretation and fluidity, but now I am just being snide and bitter about fanficrants.
What I want to say is that in general I agree with the people who say that polite discussion, providing sources, and trying not to talk down to people and shut down conversation would probably go a long way towards everyone's happiness. But because people automatically slot you into the with-me or against-me group, this doesn't happen, and usually we see the same angry responses over and over again, applied without any real regard for the details of the situation at hand, which is a big part of why it keeps happening.
"The tone argument" is hardly a useless concept, and I know I don't usually go out of my way to talk about sexism with someone who is asking me to be "less abrasive" about it or whatever, but it isn't an excuse to be abusive to and then demonize the person you're talking to.
I absolutely agree that I shouldn't have to be burdened with educating every idiot I meet, and that expecting me to do so would be unfair and demanding and frustrating. That said, if I'm going to engage in a conversation with someone who is asking me for followup information and being relatively complacent, I can throw them a link to something to try to explain my feelings just as easily as I can macro them or throw them a link to letmegooglethatforyou and then high-five all my internet besties. If I'm going to take out the effort to reply to the post, well, I'm already halfway there, it isn't like I don't have this shit bookmarked anyway.
I do think that some people can come off as extremely insincere in their urge to appear progressive - there is a strong social pressure in some circles to present as academic, intellectual, enlightened, progressive, carefully considered. Fandom as a whole does a lot of circlejerking (we're fans, duh!) so it's not really any surprise that it would happen in those circles too. That said I think it's pretty presumptuous to state that people like this are insincere, or worse, to suggest that everyone who ever takes the time to write about this stuff is just intellectually masturbating.
I think intent matters. Intent isn't magical and it doesn't erase ignorance or hurt, but I think suggesting that intent is irrelevant is fucking ludicrous and that we as human beings are not actually built to function that and to castigate someone for suggesting that intent matters is, again, not doing anyone any favours. The whole judicial system is based on intent, hate crime legislation is based on intent. When somebody trips and falls on you it's a lot different from when someone shoves you. It's frustrating to see people try to excuse themselves with what they intended. Like the tone argument, there's a reason this is a popular comeback - but that doesn't mean that this is going to be a useful response in every conversation, and isn't trying to engage and change people's minds when we have the patience to do so more important than touting the party line?
"Check your privilege" is a kind of ironic statement. 90% of the time, "check your privilege" is not something that is said to someone who has a full working understanding of what privilege is. More often it's a condescending shutdown to someone who either doesn't know what check your privilege means, but knows that people use it as a condescending shutdown an awful lot, or to someone who has never heard those words before. It's ironic because the word privilege is an academic one that originated in academic circles and even though the information about what it is is freely available online, it's absolutely not part of the average person's lexicon and it isn't a simple and intuitive idea to grasp. It's a concept that actually flies in the face of the way we're typically taught to think about society. I don't think we should be punishing people for not being educated in this term, I don't think that we should disdainfully toss links at them rather than trying to explain what it means, and while problematic and again, frustrating, I don't think that being optimistic about how meritocratic our society is deserves scorn or malice when most of the time it's perfectly innocent.
I don't think anyone cares that much about classism. This is tied to the above, but also, it's starting to really annoy me how casually people will talk about ignorant rednecks - often in the same sentence as how -ist they are.
I don't think it's "white knighting" or "co-opting" somebody elses' oppression to be angry about injustice done in the world. Empathy is no substitute for experience but that hardly means it doesn't exist. This came up over at ontd_political and devolved into a giant clusterfuck. I think there are conversations to be had over whether or not "ally" is a useful term and I think it's important to consider the line between being upset and being obnoxious and indignant on somebody else's behalf, but I really don't think idle internet threats about beating people up are really anything to get whipped into a frenzy about and I don't think that only people of an oppressed group are allowed to be upset about something.
I am still working out how I feel about appropriation. The whole conversation is taking place from a completely America-centric and occasionally Euro-centric viewpoint that ignores the fact that Western influence is not always the product of imperialism. I think the lines on what is and isn't appropriation are kind of blurry, but like porn, you'd probably know it if you saw it if you care about these things at all. From an artistic perspective, I think taking influence from what people in other countries are doing or have done is a) not always disrespectful and b) capable of being actually pretty rad. Also, Crystal Dragon Jesus is one of my favourite tropes ever.
I think it is completely legitimate for Christians and other religious people to complain about how they are treated in fandom. I don't care if no one is banning them from being married, no one likes to be stereotyped, treated as a monolith, condescended to, and be mocked for their most closely held beliefs. It's absurd that we have more respect for things like people's kinks and ships than for their feelings about God. That is something we should be able to disagree politely on. Everyone who acts like picking on a religious kid in fandom is going to make the pope less of a jackass is fooling themselves anyway.
I'd love to have conversations about all of the above, and I really wish I could. I can with some people, the people who know me, the people who are not liable to instantly label me as not-on-their-side because I said something that falls out of step with one category or the other, but I wish I could have these conversations in public spaces at large.
I am absolutely guilty of being rude, unpleasant, hostile and quick to judge when dealing with other people who said something I didn't like. But! Stepping back, I can see how it doesn't really get anybody anywhere. I am the kind of person who can learn from taking an internet beating after I've stuck my foot in my mouth and thoroughly embarrassed myself fighting tooth and nail against what anyone else had to tell me, but I really don't think that is altogether normal, and therefore I can really sympathize with all the people who want the talk about -isms in fandom to just stop.
I don't really expect the dogpiling and the snap judgments and whatnot to be replaced by polite conversation any time soon, but I have a lot of feelings about this issue and this is sort of the only place I can put them. So... If you actually slogged through that tl;dr, thanks, I'd be interested in some feedback.
Also, have some pokemon.