The great question
Hi guys! I joined this comm because I've recently written a few John things, which I will post here pretty soonish, as I have an incurable urge to self pimp! However, at the moment while answering the comments, I'm realising that I really have amibvalent atttudes towards John! I kinda hate him, but don't. So, I am bringing you guys a ridiculously
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Sam was 6 MONTHS old, Dean was 4. Look at the men Dean and Sam have become, that didn't happen in a vacuum. And I don't care how fabulous and wonderful a 4, 5 or 6 year old Dean was, he did NOT do the VAST majority of the things that an infant needs on a minute to minute basis, up until they're around 3, if mine was anything to by. John did all that, to a very great extent alone. All the while mourning a wife murdered by a DEMON and learning to hunt vampires, ghosts, and poltergeists! I consider John to have done a better job as a father than 70% of the fathers of my own personal acquaintance!
I have no idea where the too common "abusive" label came from. It wasn't in canon for sure. John was all bark, and no bite with his kids, as far as I can tell. For Sam to have the 'permission' inside his own head, to argue with John at every opportunity tells ME that John was never abusive. You don't argue like that with someone you're afraid of.
And just exactly what did John DO TO Dean, again? I must have been too busy seeing the brave, strong, funny, loyal, compassionate Dean. Self-esteem issues you say? 90% of humanity has self-esteem issues.
As for the 2 teenage boys that Dean and Sam probably were,(based on my now 13 year old) man...forget the holy water, bring on the devil's traps!
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I know, that's one of the main reasons why I tend to come down on the "pro" side of the fence!
have no idea where the too common "abusive" label came from
Me neither! I definitely don't get that from him!
And just exactly what did John DO TO Dean, again?
Dude, he told him he had to kill his brother! You know, the brother he's totally willing to give his soul to keep alive? That one? I can't forgive him for that.
forget the holy water, bring on the devil's traps!
God yeah!
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Telling him the Sam secret? Well, John didnt have much choice now, did he? Guess who had been shouldering that secret and responsibilty all alone? John. It was John who had to deal with the fact that his youngest might go evil and have to be killed... if he failed to save him. His baby.. he had to go to sleep every night knowing that he might have to kill his baby, to save the world. John would have NEVER told Dean or Sam..except for that one selfish thing John did... he upped and friggen gave his life and soul to save Dean... thus, Dean had to learn the secret as the new head of the family.
I hate the abuse crap. Abused kids dont search for their abuser and break in to tears of joy and bolt into the abusers arm's for hugs. First full hugs we saw on the show were both boys hugging their dad.
It has to be an age thing.. the younger fans, that side with the bitch faced Sam or feel Dean's pain see it as abuse. Older fans see it as love and protection.. which Sam eventually saw too.
And ladies, you wanna talk supernatural?? A man being the mom & dad to 2 young boys...that is supernatural! Quite often, getting a normal dad to just switch out the laundry or to take the kids to the park, requires a binding spell. John mastered getting puke out of the Impala's upholstry when the boys gorged on something they shouldnt. John was the one rocking Sammy to sleep and bouncing him in public to keep him happy,singing songs (ok, probably classic rock)and cutting up Dean's food and teaching him to tie his shoes, you name it.
How many times do you think that poor man heard the ever inquistive Sam ask, 'are we there yet?' Honestly... trapped in a car with 2 little boys... and then teens, one being quite sullen, I'd be looking fwd to hunting a spook and question if I might already be in hell!
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I definitely don't think he was abusive, I just edited this post to make that clear! No matter what you think of him, he definitely loved those guys!
John mastered getting puke out of the Impala's upholstry when the boys gorged on something they shouldnt. John was the one rocking Sammy to sleep and bouncing him in public to keep him happy,singing songs (ok, probably classic rock)and cutting up Dean's food and teaching him to tie his shoes, you name it.
Aw, that is so sweet! And yeah, I can imagine being trapped in a car with annoying teenagers was not so much like fun.
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John bitching about the Impala is not meaness... he was right. The Impala was John's first baby/love... huge deal to give it to Dean and being a mechanic, that means it better be cared for. And OMG, who hasnt nitpicked or been nitpicked by a parental unit?? (sit up straight, young lady!)
The Stanford fight.. John explains it and Sam gets it...so that means we kinda have to do the same. John was scared... he lost control of Sam and that just wasnt a dad issue, but a monster could eat his youngest deal.
If Sam quit school after a month and showed up at 'home', what do you think John would do?? Kick him out?? No.. you'd see that scene in "Shadows". Dean tells Sam in "Bugs" that John was scared of Sam being alone and vulnerable and would go and check on him when ever he could. That is not spite or meaness, that is a dad that has seen some heavy shit and is scared and doesnt know what to do nor does he have a mate to help him.
I see no canon meaness... John is gruff, that's it. Just like Sam is bitchy and Dean is a smartass. Coping mechanisms and quirks.. thats it.
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I reckon your milage varies with John and "canon" meanness, funnily enough I think him implying that Dean doesn't take care of the Implala is almost more undefensible than his behaviour to Sam! I certainly think that, although they did reconcile, what he said to sam was pretty non defensible, especially since Sam couldn't have been expected to know he was out there checking up on him, to Sam, it wouls have just seemed like he abandoned him!
sit up straight, young lady!)
*sits up*
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Sam didnt know John was checking up on him at the time, but in Bugs he found out and his WHOLE belief system had to be re-worked and his anger shifted to regret.
Playing shrink.. the Winchesters are Freud's wet dream. Dean has low self esteem, thinks he's worthless... well his dad may not have caused that, but been a role model. John probably made it very clear that it should be him that died and Mary alive. He probably wasnt bursting with cocky self praise after his wife was killed. He couldnt save her, thats pretty emasculating.
Dean's #1 issue is actually security. He wants his family together, because it makes him feel safe and happy. That goes back to his mom's death. If a child loses a parent of the opposite sext between 4-5, they get stunted in the oral phase of development.. at least according to Freud. Dean does lick his lips a lot and has a slight (!!!) food/pleasure complex. He cant form relationships with women, just pleasure.
Sam was spared all that.
Its nature vs nuture too. Technically, John put so much on Dean... Dean should have realized how freakin important he is, personally and to the family unit... it could have built self worth.. in many people. Even his dad dying for him.. um, we all remember the whole Jesus deal, right?? We are supposed to feel blessed by that, but instead Dean has survivors guilt because it destroyed his security blanket.. which was having Sam & his dad..his family.
(your poll was quite the catalyst for thought, very cool!!!)
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Thank you! That's what I hoped would happen, I've been amazed and gratified at the response!
the Winchesters are Freud's wet dream.
Damm right! I guess that's why this has had such a response! And hee for the oral fixation! OMG IT EXPLAINS SO MUCH!!11!
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>>And just exactly what did John DO TO Dean, again?
Dude, he told him he had to kill his brother! You know, the brother he's totally willing to give his soul to keep alive? That one? I can't forgive him for that.
He told Dean that he had to SAVE his brother, and in saving him, save the world. If Sam had turned evil and lost his soul in the turning, if he had become the chosen one, and let all the evils of hell lose...what then? I think Sam would have much preferred death. What would Dean have done if he had LET Sam turn the world into a living hell? Kill himself.
It was only when John had, literally, no other choice that he laid the burden on Dean. I wonder how long John carried that burden himself? How many years did John suspect the truth about Sam? How many months did he KNOW that he might have to kill his own son? KNOWING that Dean would NEVER forgive him for that.
That's why, IMO, he tried so hard to keep Sam and Dean away from the fight with the YED. To keep Sam as far away as he could from the possibility of being turned. As long as John was alive, the YED left Sam virtually alone.
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How many months did he KNOW that he might have to kill his own son? KNOWING that Dean would NEVER forgive him for that.
I know, that would be awful and heartbreaking. Poor guy. Yeah, I agree that you have to feel sorry for John there. So that this isn't just a comment agreeing with you, though..
As long as John was alive, the YED left Sam virtually alone.
He burnt his gilfriend on the ceiling!
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Which is where 'virtually' comes in! ;)
Jess's death is one of the reasons that Sam can now understand John a bit more, they've gone through a similar experience. But burning Jess, when Sam was already aware of the presence of demons, is a bit different from losing your wife and mother of your young children to entities that you had always believed were pure invention is a bit different.
John had his whole world view, his whole belief system ripped away from him in the matter of a few seconds. Sam lived with the knowledge that demons exist, his whole life.
Someone here mentioned that John was in crisis mode for a long time after he needed to be, and that he could have left Dean and Sam in a more 'stable' environment with family or friends. I disagree. In Issue 1 of the comics, which are the 'official back story', if you will, another family is killed, and a message left on the walls (pages 19/20) "We're coming for the children." Missouri told John that he had to leave, and take the children with him and GO. NOW.
Can you tell I'm trying to convert you to The Way of John? ;)
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What! What's this you say? That's what you're trying to do? *is shocked*
Anyway, I think I wanted to be converted, otherwise I wouldn't have posted this here! I still have ambivalent attitudes, but you guys have been great with the arguments, I've loved the response this has got!
Someone here mentioned that John was in crisis mode for a long time after he needed to be
Hee, I think that was actually another pro John thing! that he had a lot of crises to deal with!
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