Стенограмма Нюрнбергского процесса. Том XVIII.
ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-SIXTH DAY
Thursday, 11 July 1946
GENERAL RUDENKO: Mr. President, excuse me for interrupting the defendant's counsel, but it seems to me that his legal considerations and the criticism of the decisions taken at Potsdam have no bearing on the present case.
DR. ALFRED SEIDL (Counsel for Defendant Frank): Mr. President, may I briefly define my attitude on this?
As far as I am concerned, I do not wish to criticize the decisions of the Potsdam Conference. However, I am anxious to find out whether, employing the rules of the Charter, a certain conduct which has been alleged on the part of the Defendant Frank constitutes evidence for War Crimes or Crimes against Humanity. It is only within the framework of investigating that question that I find myself forced to go into the decisions of the so-called Potsdam Conference and bring them up in my argument.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, the Tribunal considers that your references to the Potsdam Declaration are irrelevant, and the objection of General Rudenko is therefore sustained. You are directed to go on to some other part of your argument.
…
DR.SEIDL: … Setting aside the crimes committed in the concentration camps and considering the nature of concentration camps to be that in which people are confined for reasons of state and police security on account of their political opinions and without an opportunity of defending themselves in an ordinary court of law, it appears at least doubtful whether an occupying power should not have the right to take such necessary steps as this in order to maintain public order and security. Apart from the fact that it was not National Socialists and not Germans at all who first established such camps, the following must be mentioned:
In the American Occupation Zone alone there were, according to a statement.. .
DR. ROBERT M. KEMPNER (Assistant Trial Counsel for the United States): Mr. President, we raise an objection. This matter is completely irrelevant.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, do you wish to say anything in answer to the objection?
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I beg you to overrule the objection by the Prosecution, and I should like to say the following: I am not interested in criticizing an occupying power; I am only concerned with the question of whether certain conduct of which the Defendant Frank has been accused by the Prosecution constitutes the evidence of a criminal act.
I base my case on the assumption that what is proper for one occupying power must, under similar circumstances, be allowed for another occupying power, especially when it is a question of accusations made against the defendant concerning actions carried out during the war, while, the state of war with Germany having ceased on 8 May 1945 at the very latest, these urgent reasons now perhaps no longer exist to that extent.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal sustains the objection. There is no evidence of the statements which you have made. And in any event, the Tribunal considers them entirely irrelevant.
DR. SEIDL: ... In the literature of international law it is undisputed that the conception of vital stress (Notstand) as recognized in criminal law would, in international law, too, preclude illegality in the case of a given violation of law. If the vital interests of a State are endangered, that State may, these interests being preponderant, safeguard them if necessary by injuring the justified interests of a third party. Even those writers who deny the application of the "vital stress" theory to international law-they are in the minority-grant the threatened State the "right to self-preservation" and therewith the right to enforce "necessities of state" even at the cost of the just interests of other States. It is a recognized principle of international law that a State need not wait until the direct threat of extinction is at its very threshold. There can be no doubt that after the entry into the war of the United States, with which for all practical purposes the productive capacity and the military might of almost the whole world were gathered together to overthrow Germany, the German Reich was faced with a situation which not only threatened the State as such with extinction but over and above that placed the bare existence of the people in jeopardy. Under these circumstances the right of the State leadership to make use of labor forces, even those in occupied territory, in this defensive struggle had to be acknowledged.
Thursday, 11 July 1946
GENERAL RUDENKO: Mr. President, excuse me for interrupting the defendant's counsel, but it seems to me that his legal considerations and the criticism of the decisions taken at Potsdam have no bearing on the present case.
DR. ALFRED SEIDL (Counsel for Defendant Frank): Mr. President, may I briefly define my attitude on this?
As far as I am concerned, I do not wish to criticize the decisions of the Potsdam Conference. However, I am anxious to find out whether, employing the rules of the Charter, a certain conduct which has been alleged on the part of the Defendant Frank constitutes evidence for War Crimes or Crimes against Humanity. It is only within the framework of investigating that question that I find myself forced to go into the decisions of the so-called Potsdam Conference and bring them up in my argument.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, the Tribunal considers that your references to the Potsdam Declaration are irrelevant, and the objection of General Rudenko is therefore sustained. You are directed to go on to some other part of your argument.
…
DR.SEIDL: … Setting aside the crimes committed in the concentration camps and considering the nature of concentration camps to be that in which people are confined for reasons of state and police security on account of their political opinions and without an opportunity of defending themselves in an ordinary court of law, it appears at least doubtful whether an occupying power should not have the right to take such necessary steps as this in order to maintain public order and security. Apart from the fact that it was not National Socialists and not Germans at all who first established such camps, the following must be mentioned:
In the American Occupation Zone alone there were, according to a statement.. .
DR. ROBERT M. KEMPNER (Assistant Trial Counsel for the United States): Mr. President, we raise an objection. This matter is completely irrelevant.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, do you wish to say anything in answer to the objection?
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I beg you to overrule the objection by the Prosecution, and I should like to say the following: I am not interested in criticizing an occupying power; I am only concerned with the question of whether certain conduct of which the Defendant Frank has been accused by the Prosecution constitutes the evidence of a criminal act.
I base my case on the assumption that what is proper for one occupying power must, under similar circumstances, be allowed for another occupying power, especially when it is a question of accusations made against the defendant concerning actions carried out during the war, while, the state of war with Germany having ceased on 8 May 1945 at the very latest, these urgent reasons now perhaps no longer exist to that extent.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal sustains the objection. There is no evidence of the statements which you have made. And in any event, the Tribunal considers them entirely irrelevant.
DR. SEIDL: ... In the literature of international law it is undisputed that the conception of vital stress (Notstand) as recognized in criminal law would, in international law, too, preclude illegality in the case of a given violation of law. If the vital interests of a State are endangered, that State may, these interests being preponderant, safeguard them if necessary by injuring the justified interests of a third party. Even those writers who deny the application of the "vital stress" theory to international law-they are in the minority-grant the threatened State the "right to self-preservation" and therewith the right to enforce "necessities of state" even at the cost of the just interests of other States. It is a recognized principle of international law that a State need not wait until the direct threat of extinction is at its very threshold. There can be no doubt that after the entry into the war of the United States, with which for all practical purposes the productive capacity and the military might of almost the whole world were gathered together to overthrow Germany, the German Reich was faced with a situation which not only threatened the State as such with extinction but over and above that placed the bare existence of the people in jeopardy. Under these circumstances the right of the State leadership to make use of labor forces, even those in occupied territory, in this defensive struggle had to be acknowledged.