Стенограмма Нюрнбергского процесса. Том XV.
ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-NINTH DAY
Friday, 7 June 1946
COL. POKROVSKY: So you confirm that the success of the Red Army upset what you call "the bold and far-reaching plans" of Hitler to send an expeditionary corps to Syria and Egypt? Is that right?
JODL: If the Soviet Union had collapsed, then one might have entertained such ideas for continuing the war. But never the idea, for instance, of attacking Turkey. She would have come over to our side anyway voluntarily. That was the opinion of the Führer.
COL. POKROVSKY: How do you know that?
JODL: How do I know it? Even the document says so. And there are the entries in the Diaries of the Armed Forces Operations Staff, which are here in Court. It says:
"After big German victories, Turkey will come over to our side, anyway. I order that she be given preferential treatment in the supply of munitions and arms and tanks."
In fact, Turkey had expressed such a wish, and she was very grateful to receive from us tanks equipped with arms. The Führer would never have done that if he had expected Turkey to join our opponents.
…
COL. POKROVSKY: Could you perhaps recollect, Defendant Jodl, when and in what circumstances you yourself said, at one of Hitler's conferences, that the German troops were entitled to treat the partisans as they wished and to subject them to any kind of death by torture, by quartering, hanging them head downward, et cetera. Do you remember having said something of the kind at that time?
JODL: About this matter-which is more comical than serious-we talked for quite some time during the preliminary interrogation.
COL. POKROVSKY: Perhaps you can tell us about this matter at less length but with greater precision. Will you answer my question whether you spoke these words or anything like these words, and in what circumstances did you say them?
JODL: I want to explain it briefly. It was on 1 December 1942. As the Tribunal will remember, a directive in regard to combating the guerrillas was issued on 11 November by the Armed Forces Operations Staff, which we declared to be outdated by the new issue on 6 May 1944. In that directive, which was issued on 11 November, I had written the sentence: "The burning down of villages as a reprisal is forbidden, because it necessarily only creates new partisans."
The draft of that instruction remained in the Führer's hands for weeks. He always objected that this instruction would hamper the troops in ruthlessly combating the guerrillas. As at that time I had already issued that instruction and he still had not given his approval, I became rather rude; and when he once more came with lengthy explanations of his fighting experience, his experience of fighting the Communists in Chemnitz, I said, in order to break the ice at last, "My Führer, what people do in battle does not come into this instruction at all. As far as I am concerned, they can quarter them or they can hang them upside down."
If I had known that the Russian gentlemen have so little sense of irony, I would have added, "and roast them on the spit." That is what I said and I added, "But in this instruction we are concerned with reprisals after the battle, and they must be prohibited."
Then there were roars of laughter from all the officers present, and also from the Führer; and he gave me permission to issue that directive; and the testimony of a witness, General Buhle, who was present, will confirm that to you. That quartering people has not been the custom in Germany since the sixteenth century, any more than hanging people upside down, everybody in the world certainly knows. Therefore that remark could only be an ironical one.
COL. POKROVSKY: I ask the Tribunal to grant me one minute for one last question, literally one minute only.
[Turning to the defendant.] Do you know that the German troops, evidently understanding irony better than we do-and in the literal sense of the word-quartered, hanged upside down, and roasted Soviet captives over the fire? Did you know of that?
JODL: Not only I did not know it, but I do not even believe it.
…
COL. POKROVSKY: You have given very important testimony before the Tribunal. You have admitted that in 1941 the warriors of the Red Army at Vyazma were fanatically resisting the Fascist invaders. Many of them were taken prisoner only because they were too exhausted to move. You thereby explained the abnormally high mortality among the Soviet prisoners of war. Is that correct?
JODL: That is true with regard to the prisoners, particularly in the Vyazma pocket.
COL. POKROVSKY: Can you think of any other reasons you know which would account for this high mortality among the Soviet prisoners of war?
JODL: I did not hear of any other reasons.
COL. POKROVSKY: Then I will refresh your memory a little and draw your attention to a short excerpt from our Exhibit Number USSR-353. It is a letter from Rosenberg to the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, that is, it was sent directly to the OKW. The letter is dated 28 February 1942. I would draw your attention to a few short extracts from this document. On Page 1, I believe, the following sentences are underlined:
"The fate of the Soviet prisoners of war in Germany is a large-scale tragedy.... A great part of them have died of hunger or from the inclement weather. Thousands have also died of typhus."
I will leave out a few sentences and proceed to the next page:
"Several intelligent camp commanders have taken this line with some success."
Before it had been a question of the population being willing to supply the prisoners of war with food of their own accord.
"In the majority of cases, however, the camp commanders have forbidden the civilian population to give any food to the prisoners of war and have preferred to let them die of starvation.. . . Moreover, in many cases, when prisoners of war on the march could no longer keep up from sheer hunger and exhaustion, they were shot in full view of the horrified civilian population; and the corpses were left by the roadside."
And further on:
"Remarks have been heard like these: 'The more of these prisoners that die, the better it will be for us.' "
And again on Page 3:
"It would be to naive to imagine that what went on in the prisoner-of-war camps could be concealed from the Soviet Government. It is obvious from Molotov's circular note that the Soviets are perfectly well aware of the conditions described above. ..."
Have you found the passages in question?
JODL: Yes, I have found them.
COL. POKROVSKY: Now, did you really know nothing of the reasons for this high mortality?
JODL: No. I heard of the letter here in court for the first time.
…
COL. POKROVSKY: … You will now be shown Document Number USSR-151, Page 5 of the German text. You will find there the passage to which I should like to draw your attention.
"At the end of 1941 or the beginning of 1942 I [General Österreich] was repeatedly called to Berlin to attend conferences held by the commanders in charge of prisoners of war in the military districts.
"The newly appointed commander of the Prisoners of War Organization in the headquarters of the OKW, Major General Von Graevenitz, presided over the conference.
"During the conference there was a discussion about the treatment of prisoners of war who, because of their wounds or from exhaustion and disease, were unfit to live and unfit to work. At the suggestion of General Von Graevenitz several of the officers present, among them several doctors, gave their opinions on it and declared that such prisoners of war should be concentrated in a camp or in a hospital and be poisoned. Following this discussion, Major General Von Graevenitz issued an order to the effect that all prisoners of war who were unfit to live and to work should be killed and that medical personnel should be employed for this purpose."
Did you know anything at all about that?
JODL: I knew nothing about that at all, and I cannot comment on this document. It has nothing to do with me and I do not know whether what has been said here is true, but General Von Graevenitz must certainly know about it. I had no connection whatsoever with prisoners of war. That was another office, General Reinecke.
Friday, 7 June 1946
COL. POKROVSKY: So you confirm that the success of the Red Army upset what you call "the bold and far-reaching plans" of Hitler to send an expeditionary corps to Syria and Egypt? Is that right?
JODL: If the Soviet Union had collapsed, then one might have entertained such ideas for continuing the war. But never the idea, for instance, of attacking Turkey. She would have come over to our side anyway voluntarily. That was the opinion of the Führer.
COL. POKROVSKY: How do you know that?
JODL: How do I know it? Even the document says so. And there are the entries in the Diaries of the Armed Forces Operations Staff, which are here in Court. It says:
"After big German victories, Turkey will come over to our side, anyway. I order that she be given preferential treatment in the supply of munitions and arms and tanks."
In fact, Turkey had expressed such a wish, and she was very grateful to receive from us tanks equipped with arms. The Führer would never have done that if he had expected Turkey to join our opponents.
…
COL. POKROVSKY: Could you perhaps recollect, Defendant Jodl, when and in what circumstances you yourself said, at one of Hitler's conferences, that the German troops were entitled to treat the partisans as they wished and to subject them to any kind of death by torture, by quartering, hanging them head downward, et cetera. Do you remember having said something of the kind at that time?
JODL: About this matter-which is more comical than serious-we talked for quite some time during the preliminary interrogation.
COL. POKROVSKY: Perhaps you can tell us about this matter at less length but with greater precision. Will you answer my question whether you spoke these words or anything like these words, and in what circumstances did you say them?
JODL: I want to explain it briefly. It was on 1 December 1942. As the Tribunal will remember, a directive in regard to combating the guerrillas was issued on 11 November by the Armed Forces Operations Staff, which we declared to be outdated by the new issue on 6 May 1944. In that directive, which was issued on 11 November, I had written the sentence: "The burning down of villages as a reprisal is forbidden, because it necessarily only creates new partisans."
The draft of that instruction remained in the Führer's hands for weeks. He always objected that this instruction would hamper the troops in ruthlessly combating the guerrillas. As at that time I had already issued that instruction and he still had not given his approval, I became rather rude; and when he once more came with lengthy explanations of his fighting experience, his experience of fighting the Communists in Chemnitz, I said, in order to break the ice at last, "My Führer, what people do in battle does not come into this instruction at all. As far as I am concerned, they can quarter them or they can hang them upside down."
If I had known that the Russian gentlemen have so little sense of irony, I would have added, "and roast them on the spit." That is what I said and I added, "But in this instruction we are concerned with reprisals after the battle, and they must be prohibited."
Then there were roars of laughter from all the officers present, and also from the Führer; and he gave me permission to issue that directive; and the testimony of a witness, General Buhle, who was present, will confirm that to you. That quartering people has not been the custom in Germany since the sixteenth century, any more than hanging people upside down, everybody in the world certainly knows. Therefore that remark could only be an ironical one.
COL. POKROVSKY: I ask the Tribunal to grant me one minute for one last question, literally one minute only.
[Turning to the defendant.] Do you know that the German troops, evidently understanding irony better than we do-and in the literal sense of the word-quartered, hanged upside down, and roasted Soviet captives over the fire? Did you know of that?
JODL: Not only I did not know it, but I do not even believe it.
…
COL. POKROVSKY: You have given very important testimony before the Tribunal. You have admitted that in 1941 the warriors of the Red Army at Vyazma were fanatically resisting the Fascist invaders. Many of them were taken prisoner only because they were too exhausted to move. You thereby explained the abnormally high mortality among the Soviet prisoners of war. Is that correct?
JODL: That is true with regard to the prisoners, particularly in the Vyazma pocket.
COL. POKROVSKY: Can you think of any other reasons you know which would account for this high mortality among the Soviet prisoners of war?
JODL: I did not hear of any other reasons.
COL. POKROVSKY: Then I will refresh your memory a little and draw your attention to a short excerpt from our Exhibit Number USSR-353. It is a letter from Rosenberg to the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, that is, it was sent directly to the OKW. The letter is dated 28 February 1942. I would draw your attention to a few short extracts from this document. On Page 1, I believe, the following sentences are underlined:
"The fate of the Soviet prisoners of war in Germany is a large-scale tragedy.... A great part of them have died of hunger or from the inclement weather. Thousands have also died of typhus."
I will leave out a few sentences and proceed to the next page:
"Several intelligent camp commanders have taken this line with some success."
Before it had been a question of the population being willing to supply the prisoners of war with food of their own accord.
"In the majority of cases, however, the camp commanders have forbidden the civilian population to give any food to the prisoners of war and have preferred to let them die of starvation.. . . Moreover, in many cases, when prisoners of war on the march could no longer keep up from sheer hunger and exhaustion, they were shot in full view of the horrified civilian population; and the corpses were left by the roadside."
And further on:
"Remarks have been heard like these: 'The more of these prisoners that die, the better it will be for us.' "
And again on Page 3:
"It would be to naive to imagine that what went on in the prisoner-of-war camps could be concealed from the Soviet Government. It is obvious from Molotov's circular note that the Soviets are perfectly well aware of the conditions described above. ..."
Have you found the passages in question?
JODL: Yes, I have found them.
COL. POKROVSKY: Now, did you really know nothing of the reasons for this high mortality?
JODL: No. I heard of the letter here in court for the first time.
…
COL. POKROVSKY: … You will now be shown Document Number USSR-151, Page 5 of the German text. You will find there the passage to which I should like to draw your attention.
"At the end of 1941 or the beginning of 1942 I [General Österreich] was repeatedly called to Berlin to attend conferences held by the commanders in charge of prisoners of war in the military districts.
"The newly appointed commander of the Prisoners of War Organization in the headquarters of the OKW, Major General Von Graevenitz, presided over the conference.
"During the conference there was a discussion about the treatment of prisoners of war who, because of their wounds or from exhaustion and disease, were unfit to live and unfit to work. At the suggestion of General Von Graevenitz several of the officers present, among them several doctors, gave their opinions on it and declared that such prisoners of war should be concentrated in a camp or in a hospital and be poisoned. Following this discussion, Major General Von Graevenitz issued an order to the effect that all prisoners of war who were unfit to live and to work should be killed and that medical personnel should be employed for this purpose."
Did you know anything at all about that?
JODL: I knew nothing about that at all, and I cannot comment on this document. It has nothing to do with me and I do not know whether what has been said here is true, but General Von Graevenitz must certainly know about it. I had no connection whatsoever with prisoners of war. That was another office, General Reinecke.