Стенограмма Нюрнбергского процесса. Том IX.
EIGHTY-FIFTH DAY
Tuesday, 19 March 1946
THE PRESIDENT: Before the witness goes on with his evidence, the Tribunal want me to say that the system by which the earphones are connected with the interpreters was checked over after the Court rose last night, was checked over again at 9:30 this morning, and again at 9:55 this morning. But everyone who comes into this court must realize that it has not been possible to bury these cables so as to make them altogether safe.
It is, therefore, of the very greatest importance that everybody who comes into this court should take real care to avoid, if possible, treading upon these cables, which may become injured by being kicked and broken, and in that way the faults in the system occur.
Everything is being done to maintain the system as efficiently as possible. It, therefore, rests with those who use this court to see that they do their best to assist in keeping the system efficient.
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DR. STAHMER: Will you describe this conversation somewhat more exactly in detail.
DAHLERUS: Hitler began, in his usual way to describe German policy to me at length. That lasted about 20 minutes, and I thought that my visit would not prove useful. When he inveighed against the English and England, I interrupted him and stated that I had worked in Great Britain, as a workman, as an engineer, and as a manager of industrial enterprises, that I knew the English people well, and that I could not agree with his statements. A long discussion resulted. He asked many questions about England and the English people. Thereafter, he began to explain to me how well equipped the German fighting forces were. Then he seemed very excited, walked up and down the room, and in the end got himself into a very agitated condition and told me that, if it came to a war, he would build U-boats, U-boats, and more U-boats. He seemed really to speak as though he were not aware that there was still anybody in the room. After a while he shouted that he would build airplanes, airplanes, and still more airplanes, and that he would win the war. Then he calmed down again and talked again about England and said, "Herr Dahlerus, tell me please, why I have not been able to arrive at an agreement with the British Government. You seem really to know England so well. Perhaps you can solve the riddle for me?" I hesitated at first, but then I told him that, with my intimate knowledge of the English people, I was personally of the opinion that their lack of confidence in him and his Government was the reason.
The conversation continued. He gave me a long report on his discussions on Friday with Henderson, and finally he asked me to go to London at once and explain his viewpoint. I refused, naturally, and told him that I could not go there as an emissary of Germany. If, however, the British Government expressed the wish that should come, I would, of course, be prepared to do this. The condition was such, however, that I must know definitely what conditions and proposals he had to make. We spent an hour and a half, during which he explained the various points in greater detail than he had been able to do with Henderson.
DR. STAHMER: What proposals were you specifically to make?
DAHLERUS: In condensed form, they were as follows:
(1) Germany wanted an agreement or an alliance with England.
(2) England was to help Germany in the annexation of Danzig and the Corridor.
(3) Germany gave the assurance that it would guarantee Poland's boundaries.
(4) An agreement should be reached on Germany's colonies.
(5) Adequate guarantees should be given for the treatment of German minorities.
(6) Germany gave its word to defend the British Empire with the German Wehrmacht wherever it should be attacked.
DR. STAHMER: Mr. Dahlerus, regarding Point 2, was not Poland assured of a free harbor in Danzig? You may want to add something as to what assurance Poland was to receive. That was Point 2?
DAHLERUS: Yes. This was, of course, only an outline. These proposals were naturally far more extensive.
DR. STAHMER: Is it correct that Poland was to receive a free harbor in Danzig, that it was to receive a corridor to Gdynia, according to the proposals?
DAHLERUS: That was what Hitler said.
DR. STAHMER: Yes, thank you. What was the further course of the conversation?
DAHLERUS: I left on a special plane the next morning, after I had got in touch with London. I met Mr. Chamberlain, Lord Halifax, Sir Horace Wilson, and Sir Alexander Cadogan.
DR. STAHMER: This was on 27 August, was it not?
DAHLERUS: On 27 August, yes.
DR. STAHMER: Where?
DAHLERUS: In Downing Street, Number 10.
DR. STAHMER: What transpired in this conference with Lord Halifax and Mr. Chamberlain?
DAHLERUS: We discussed in full detail the proposals I had brought. On certain points, as is seen from the British Blue Book, these proposals were not the same as those made to Henderson.
I therefor suggested to the British Government that, if they had full confidence in me as an intermediary, they should tell me how far they could accept the proposals and how far not. I would go back to Berlin the same day and discuss the English views with Hitler and Göring. They should keep Henderson in London until Monday, so that the answer could be given after they had been informed how Hitler regarded the English standpoint.
...With reference to the first point, England was willing in principle to come to an agreement with Germany.
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DAHLERUS: ... In the meantime, Lipski stated to Forbes that he would not be interested in discussing this note with the German Government.
DR. STAHMER: Would you reconstruct this conversation as far as you are able? It seems to me particularly important.
DAHLERUS: He said that he had no reason to negotiate with the German Government. If it came to war between Poland and Germany, he knew-since he had lived 5 1/2 years in Germany - that a revolution would break out in Germany, and that they would march on Berlin.
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DAHLERUS: ... I should like to mention that I met Hitler on 1September, immediately after his Reichstag speech in the Kroll Opera House. He was at that time exceedingly nervous and very agitated. He told me he had all along suspected that England wanted the war. He told me further that he would crush Poland and annex the whole country. Göring interrupted, and pointed out that they would advance as far as certain given points. But Hitler was in an uncontrollable frame of mind. He began to shout he would fight for 1 year, 2 years, and ended up in great agitation that he would, in fact, fight 10 years.
Then, on Sunday, 3 September, I was informed early in the morning by Forbes that at 9 o'clock that morning an ultimatum would be given. The conditions were that the hostilities must cease immediately and the German forces must be withdrawn to the German border. I went immediately to Göring's headquarters near Potsdam. He was there and not with Hitler. I appealed to him to try at least to arrange for a reasonable reply to the ultimatum. I had the impression that certain members of the German Government were in favor of war and I was afraid if a written reply were given it would not be worded so as to avoid war with England. I therefore suggested that Göring should declare himself prepared to go to England, at once, before 11 o'clock, to negotiate there.
DR. STAHMER: How did Göring react to this suggestion?
DAHLERUS: He accepted this suggestion and telephoned Hitler, who likewise concurred with it.
DR. STAHMER: Did you then telephone London?
DAHLERUS: Yes. I telephoned London and got in touch with the Foreign Office. They gave the reply that they could not consider this proposal before they had received a written reply to the ultimatum.
DR. STAHMER: Did you forward this communication to Göring?
DAHLERUS: Yes, I told Göring this.
DR. STAHMER: What impression did your communication make on Göring?
DAHLERUS: Göring seemed to be sorry that the proposal was not accepted.
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DR. STAHMER: On this occasion did Göring say to you that, come what might, he would endeavor to carry on the war as humanely as possible? That Germany would under no circumstances begin hostilities against England first, but if England should attack Germany then the answer would be forthcoming?
DAHLXRUS: Yes, that is correct.
DR. STAHMER: Did you publish a book entitled Last Attempt?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
DR. STAHMER: Is the account given in this book in accordance with the truth?
DAHLERUS: Yes, it was written with greatest care. The contents are absolutely accurate and correct.
DR. STAHMER: Is this account based on notes that you took on these events?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
DR. STAHMER: When did you write these notes?
DAHLERUS: I wrote them immediately after my return to Sweden on 5 September 1939.