You've summed up exactly how I feel about Riley I think. I was OK when Joss opened the door to guy having issues with stronger, more powerful girlfriend, cuz I thought, cool, this is a timely thing to talk about, cuz there's a bunch of guys who struggle with such a thing, and Joss is gonna take us thru the issue and show how it's possible for a guy like that to cope. But no, we never made it all the way thru, and I'm still disappointed in how that was handled. Thinking about it now, it reminds me some of how the fallout from Billy on Angel never got shown/dealt with - the guys do horrible, misogynist things, and it's never mentioned again after that ep.
The main thing that I took notices in Billy, that all males got declared primeval misogynist?!!. And there are countless of other example where Buffy/Ats writer, have a very negative angle on males The Beauty and the Beast, compare the suspect, and in the end non-consequential patriarchal Watchers Council with matriarchal Guardians. I do like the shows, but somebody should tell Joss, that being a feminist is not about showing males as an amoral sub-species of humanity.
Yeah, the primal misogyny thing is pretty dumb. But I would also have to argue that Joss' version of feminism can be rather reductive at times -- witness the current gender imbalance on Angel and Angel the show's tendency to treat its female characters as perfect things to be protected or admired (and Angel the character, now that I think about it).
I actually think the Jossverse has all sorts of examples of men as not amoral, as well as alternate versions of masculinity. I appreciate that they do acknowledge that living in the current society affects men too - of course Wesley, having grown up surrounded by the patriarchal Watchers Council, struggles with sexism. But I wouldn't call Wesley or Giles or Xander or Riley or Doyle amoral. Even Spike and Angel, male vampires who are supposed to be amoral, aren't.
As to Billy in particular, yea, I'm not really excited about the message that all men are primally misogynist either. I could have forgiven the clumsiness of the premise more if there'd been more payoff.
*nods* I'm still hoping that Into the Woods isn't as headbashingly bad in terms of gender relations, but am not quite believing it, given all the comments on it I've read.
In general I adored Billy (creepy!!), but was sort of annoyed at the "primal misogyny" thing *rolls eyes*. Anyhow, I watched a little commentary on the DVDs, and I thought it was interesting because one of the writers (or Joss, I can't remember) says Billy is the main reason why Fred decides to go for Gunn instead of Wes -- which I think does have some pretty long-term consequences for the series and for Wes. But yeah, there's never any direct fallout.
Re: surfed on over from <lj user="mutant_allies">oyceterMay 26 2004, 00:09:03 UTC
Good crying? Bad crying? Oh dear...
I adored early Riley and how he liked the fact that his girlfriend was kickass. And Blucas totally sold "But she doesn't love me" for me, and I loved how he was so matter-of-fact about it, and I sort of wish it had continued along that path, instead of him nursing resentment.
Re: surfed on over from <lj user="mutant_allies">oyceterMay 27 2004, 23:50:54 UTC
No fear for spoilers! I have now watched up to Into the Woods. Plus, I've seen all of latter S5, all of S6 and all of S7. So really, I have only not seen a few middle episodes of S5 now!
You know, I was of two minds about the episode, and I could see myself grudgingly respecting it, but then Xander opened his mouth and it all went kaput for me.
Re: surfed on over from <lj user="mutant_allies">oyceterMay 28 2004, 21:57:32 UTC
Haha, I was so annoyed with Xander that when he got to his second speech, all I could do was roll my eyes. Particularly at the "Like a man" part, which just disturbed, given that the entire episode was basically about feeling manly and being manly and how apparently one cannot be manly unless one is strong and has the power in the relationship. And that, of course, only the man can be manly. Grrrrr.
I actually liked the collapse because it was like me -- it's why I think S6 resonated so much with me. I liked Buffy before, but I suddenly understood the characters in a way I didn't before when they were in angst and pain.
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As to Billy in particular, yea, I'm not really excited about the message that all men are primally misogynist either. I could have forgiven the clumsiness of the premise more if there'd been more payoff.
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In general I adored Billy (creepy!!), but was sort of annoyed at the "primal misogyny" thing *rolls eyes*. Anyhow, I watched a little commentary on the DVDs, and I thought it was interesting because one of the writers (or Joss, I can't remember) says Billy is the main reason why Fred decides to go for Gunn instead of Wes -- which I think does have some pretty long-term consequences for the series and for Wes. But yeah, there's never any direct fallout.
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I adored early Riley and how he liked the fact that his girlfriend was kickass. And Blucas totally sold "But she doesn't love me" for me, and I loved how he was so matter-of-fact about it, and I sort of wish it had continued along that path, instead of him nursing resentment.
Into the Woods scheduled for watching tomorrow...
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You know, I was of two minds about the episode, and I could see myself grudgingly respecting it, but then Xander opened his mouth and it all went kaput for me.
Sigh.
And I think I missed the Whedon coinage!!
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I actually liked the collapse because it was like me -- it's why I think S6 resonated so much with me. I liked Buffy before, but I suddenly understood the characters in a way I didn't before when they were in angst and pain.
I totally missed "suck job"! That's awesome ^_^.
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