I am 50/50 with TV!Theon vs. Book!Theon. To tell the truth, up to reading ADWD I was still thinking that he is pretty unimportant and didn't notice it that his role in TV!GoT is so much bigger. But after finishing ADWD (almost finished!) , I keep returning back to Theon's scenes in TV!Got and the earlier books. I think they are different, but TV Theon works for me too.
PS: this poll/discussion is fabulous - you should post it in the comm.
vague spoilers for ADWDoutboxedSeptember 3 2011, 13:38:36 UTC
I thought Theon was unimportant in AGOT but he plays a major role in the plot of ACOK and I loved all of his POV chapters so I changed my mind about his importance then. I think the show has done a good job of foreshadowing his role in ACOK by giving him more screentime. The funny thing for me is that I'd not noticed just how different book!Theon is from show!Theon until I read ADWD. I think ADWD makes a lot of the things about Theon which were mentioned in passing in the previous books much more explicit and confirms how dissimilar he is in the books than in the show. I thought I was being a mad Theon fan for imagining that he was meant to be charming & attractive (if a complete jerk to women) in the books but ADWD really does show that when Theon looks back, disbelievingly, amazed that women ever wanted him.
I have posted it to game_thrones but it's in the moderation queue at the moment. (: I've also linked it on tumblr.
Re: vague spoilers for ADWDalexandralSeptember 3 2011, 14:22:00 UTC
I had a feeling of "Surely this guy is unimportant why are you talking about him?" through ACOK, and when he almost dissapeared in AFFC I almost forgot about him.
And yes, I forgot to mention - I agree that Theon becomes much clearer in ADWD (where in other books you could have different interpretations) .
Also, I just thought that one of the explanations of "why is Theon's role so much bigger in TV series" is that this is because he is with Robb and ROBB's role is MUCH bigger. He never registered with me as a 1-tier character (still doesn't) , not until TV series. This is one of my personal bees in the bonnet and I do not care that much for Robb. I think the show creators expanded Robb's role because there is this rule of successful TV entertainment: you need a "hero" in the series . With Ned being dead, Robb is just continuation of the "hero" storyline (interestingly, the Book!Robb isn't really that much of a hero).
Re: vague spoilers for ADWDalexandralSeptember 3 2011, 16:41:52 UTC
I remember now, I thought he died at one point. Now - I think he is one of VERY IMPORTANT characters that will be alive at the end.
Hmm, I don't know about Robb though. I haven't made a comparison you did (counting the times he is mentioned in the show and in the book), but I have a feeling that if I count screen-time and book-time, he has much more screen-time. To accommodate this, some of the important bits were cut. One of the things I always miss in the show are Bran's dreams. Bran is hardly in the show in the second half. OTOH, Robb has long scenes where he gives inspirational speeches that weren't in the book ("this war is not over") and hacks at trees.
I am not really upset about the increase in this role, apart from the fact that Robb will still be dead considerably soon, but Bran, for example, will live. His prophesies are very important. (Please understand, I am not really harping about Bran's scenes, I am just saying that increase in Robb's scenes meant decrease in other people's scenes)
Re: vague spoilers for ADWD / major spoilers for ASOSoutboxedSeptember 3 2011, 17:25:38 UTC
Theon's fate was very uncertain between ACOK and ADWD. He goes unmentioned (presumably dead) until early-to-mid-ASOS when Roose gives Robb the flayed skin of Theon's pinky & it seems that they're holding him as a hostage but, in AFFC, the ironmen (well, mostly Asha) seem to believe that he's dead.
I really don't think that Robb gets much new stuff in the show, at all. He might proportionally get more screentime because very few of his scenes are cut but most of it's in the books. I suspect that one of the reasons you feel that there's a lack of Bran is because so much of the Robb stuff is done from Bran's POV in the books, you get a lot of Bran's opinions on "Robb the Lord" before Robb goes south. In terms of Robb's scenes at the end of the novel, yes, the speech is new (in the book, you get Catelyn chiding Theon for his comments rather than Robb) but the scene here he hacks at the tree replaces a scene which is at least as lengthy where Catelyn visits him where he's praying in the godswood at Riverrun. (I was wrong about the 'King
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Re: vague spoilers for ADWD / major spoilers for ASOSalexandralSeptember 3 2011, 17:43:41 UTC
Oh yes, I mean "proportionally". He gets some scenes added where other characters have scenes cut. In the books, he is just this boy figure-head who is quite good at battle strategy.In the series - first-tier character. This doesn't make sense to me.
I disagree about Bran - I thought his POV was second most important in ADWD . Such a reveal. He is going to be a surviving character too.
Re: vague spoilers for ADWD / major spoilers for ASOSoutboxedSeptember 3 2011, 18:02:30 UTC
Robb's increased role in the show makes sense to me, insofar as I think it would be hard to have him there and not make an impact when there isn't the barrier of his not having POV chapters. Maybe that sounds weird but I honestly feel as though the lack of Robb's POV in the books was the main reason he didn't appear as a major character. In the books, he is important to the action of the series but not having his own POV chapters means that he's, inevitably, in the background and the fact that we don't get to see his thought processes makes him seem distant. That can't be carried forward into the show so he appears more prominent in his scenes than he did when it was just Catelyn or Bran telling us about him.
Bran's POV in ADWD was important in a world-building sense but he only got 3 chapters and all of those were in the first half of the book. I would definitely say that that means he has less of a role than in, say, AGOT or ACOK where he has 7 POV chapters apiece.
Re: vague spoilers for ADWD / major spoilers for ASOSalexandralSeptember 3 2011, 18:38:21 UTC
Not for me. I always thought (and still think) that Martin didn't think him to be that important, hence no POV chapters. I understand his attraction for younger audience (there isn't that many hot young males in this story), but for Martin (it seems) he was just a figure-head King of the lost cause, otherwise he would have given him a POV. In many of his interviews Martin as much as points out the main characters of the story - Dany, Theon and Jon. Even Robb's death was only important as the cause of Catelyn's grief, consequently her becoming Undead!Cat. But again, this is me. Be I many years younger - I would have probably gave him more of my time and argued his importance in the Game of Thrones.
Oh, I would disagree on Bran too. I don't think is all about numbers, rather about the importance of the story.
Edit: I meant to say "Tyrion", not "Theon". This is telling - I am thinking of the boy too much!
Re: vague spoilers for ADWD / major spoilers for ASOSoutboxedSeptember 3 2011, 18:46:50 UTC
I'd never claim that Robb was meant to be a central character on an emotional level or that he is important of himself BUT he is important to the plot of the story. It would be impossible to cut him without losing plot coherence. I'd agree that there is a reason that Martin didn't give him POV chapters and it does make him less important (because we aren't meant to be emotionally invested in his personal fate, really) but the TV show, by necessity, has to stick to the main strand of the plot and since Robb mostly exists in the books in scenes which advance the plot, he ends up with a more central role in the TV series. I'm curious about Martin having supposedly said that Dany, Theon and Jon are the central characters though. Do you have a source for that? I'd love to read Martin's views on Theon's importance
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Re: vague spoilers for ADWD / major spoilers for ASOSalexandralSeptember 3 2011, 18:57:30 UTC
The key is "because we aren't meant to be emotionally invested in his personal fate, really". I think the way they are showing him in the show, this doesn't apply. It definitely feels as if he is THE HERO (which I find confusing, because he is not. Ned was. And Cat is , to some extent. not Robb). In short - somehow the show watchers tend to be too emotionally invested in Robb. I am sure this didn't happen "accidentally". the creators understand the value of good eye candy (and "hero" candy).
In a strange way, it also seems as if The North is some kind of Moral Compass, where I thought in the books this wasn't the case.
And yes, Tyrion.
Bran: It depends what people find interesting, Martin makes his story for different folks. I was always very invested in the magical aspect of it. the wars are beginning to bore me (too many!), especially considering that Dany will come and sit on the Throne (eventually).
Re: vague spoilers for ADWD / major spoilers for ASOSoutboxedSeptember 3 2011, 20:14:08 UTC
I really don't think that they can help foregrounding Robb in the show, given his role in the plot. I never felt, watching the show (before I'd read the books), that Robb was the hero. I think most fans just like him because they think Richard Madden is attractive - not because they feel that he's the saviour of the universe. Obviously, I can't speak for everyone though and, yes, he does have increased prominence in season 1 and, apparently, will continue to have that in season 2.
You don't think that the Starks, at least, were seen as morally upright in the books? I definitely think that all the Northern lords in ASOIAF believe that.
re: Bran: I agree that some fans will certainly be very interested in his plot but I still think he's undeliably on the periphery of the plot - regardless of whether or not he's important.
Re: vague spoilers for ADWD / major spoilers for ASOSalexandralSeptember 3 2011, 21:08:17 UTC
I think you might be right, it is just the fact that I seem to see all this Robb-squee on LJ. To think of it, the guys I work with seem to be talking more about Ned, Littlefinger and Varys. But yes, I also agree that he still has increased prominence, but for me - not necessary to the plot.
I get the feel that Martin raises "big questions" about validity of "honour for the sake of honour" and doesn't necessarily point a finger at Starks as people who are most honourable. I.e , the usual Ned/Jaime debate. Was it honourable for Jaime to kill the King Arys? or Was it honourable for Ned to take part in something that resulted in rape, child murder, etc.?
As I said, for me personally Bran's story is one of the main ones (because he is the holder of the prophesies, for one thing). What are the main parts of the ASOIAF story for you? I am asking because this question seems to bring different answers from different people.
Re: vague spoilers for ADWD / major spoilers for ASOSalexandralSeptember 4 2011, 17:47:22 UTC
I would accept Richard Madden squee as absolutely logical. :D I always wish he was playing Jon. Oh, how could have I liked Jon in this case. ** pouts
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PS: this poll/discussion is fabulous - you should post it in the comm.
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I have posted it to game_thrones but it's in the moderation queue at the moment. (: I've also linked it on tumblr.
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And yes, I forgot to mention - I agree that Theon becomes much clearer in ADWD (where in other books you could have different interpretations) .
Also, I just thought that one of the explanations of "why is Theon's role so much bigger in TV series" is that this is because he is with Robb and ROBB's role is MUCH bigger. He never registered with me as a 1-tier character (still doesn't) , not until TV series. This is one of my personal bees in the bonnet and I do not care that much for Robb. I think the show creators expanded Robb's role because there is this rule of successful TV entertainment: you need a "hero" in the series . With Ned being dead, Robb is just continuation of the "hero" storyline (interestingly, the Book!Robb isn't really that much of a hero).
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Hmm, I don't know about Robb though. I haven't made a comparison you did (counting the times he is mentioned in the show and in the book), but I have a feeling that if I count screen-time and book-time, he has much more screen-time. To accommodate this, some of the important bits were cut. One of the things I always miss in the show are Bran's dreams. Bran is hardly in the show in the second half. OTOH, Robb has long scenes where he gives inspirational speeches that weren't in the book ("this war is not over") and hacks at trees.
I am not really upset about the increase in this role, apart from the fact that Robb will still be dead considerably soon, but Bran, for example, will live. His prophesies are very important. (Please understand, I am not really harping about Bran's scenes, I am just saying that increase in Robb's scenes meant decrease in other people's scenes)
Reply
I really don't think that Robb gets much new stuff in the show, at all. He might proportionally get more screentime because very few of his scenes are cut but most of it's in the books. I suspect that one of the reasons you feel that there's a lack of Bran is because so much of the Robb stuff is done from Bran's POV in the books, you get a lot of Bran's opinions on "Robb the Lord" before Robb goes south. In terms of Robb's scenes at the end of the novel, yes, the speech is new (in the book, you get Catelyn chiding Theon for his comments rather than Robb) but the scene here he hacks at the tree replaces a scene which is at least as lengthy where Catelyn visits him where he's praying in the godswood at Riverrun. (I was wrong about the 'King ( ... )
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I disagree about Bran - I thought his POV was second most important in ADWD . Such a reveal. He is going to be a surviving character too.
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Bran's POV in ADWD was important in a world-building sense but he only got 3 chapters and all of those were in the first half of the book. I would definitely say that that means he has less of a role than in, say, AGOT or ACOK where he has 7 POV chapters apiece.
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Oh, I would disagree on Bran too. I don't think is all about numbers, rather about the importance of the story.
Edit: I meant to say "Tyrion", not "Theon". This is telling - I am thinking of the boy too much!
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In a strange way, it also seems as if The North is some kind of Moral Compass, where I thought in the books this wasn't the case.
And yes, Tyrion.
Bran:
It depends what people find interesting, Martin makes his story for different folks. I was always very invested in the magical aspect of it. the wars are beginning to bore me (too many!), especially considering that Dany will come and sit on the Throne (eventually).
Reply
You don't think that the Starks, at least, were seen as morally upright in the books? I definitely think that all the Northern lords in ASOIAF believe that.
re: Bran: I agree that some fans will certainly be very interested in his plot but I still think he's undeliably on the periphery of the plot - regardless of whether or not he's important.
Reply
I get the feel that Martin raises "big questions" about validity of "honour for the sake of honour" and doesn't necessarily point a finger at Starks as people who are most honourable. I.e , the usual Ned/Jaime debate. Was it honourable for Jaime to kill the King Arys? or Was it honourable for Ned to take part in something that resulted in rape, child murder, etc.?
As I said, for me personally Bran's story is one of the main ones (because he is the holder of the prophesies, for one thing). What are the main parts of the ASOIAF story for you? I am asking because this question seems to bring different answers from different people.
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