Portrait of a Thread (Part 1)
This is an offshoot of the July 29 entry. So, I suppose, it would be better if you read this only if you've read that.
=)
Ok. As I said in the Nov. 1 ETA of the July 29 entry (In Defense of Snape), this is a copy of my thread in IMDb (as I last saw it before it disappeared). I'm putting it here in case anyone's interested in the discussions.
Apparently, it's too long for just one entry here, so this is just the first half of it.
Posts are arranged chronologically.
Board: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (2008)
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Snape is GOOD. My theory...
by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 11:53:56 )
Hello!
I came back here to the HP boards just yesterday, so... There must have been millions (well, maybe not millions) of theories regarding Snape. I wonder, would anyone care for another one? This is my own version, where I try to examine and explain what Snape and Dumbledore said and did.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/opsat/14826.html
Please check it out. It's quite long, but some people have said it's a good read so hopefully you won't notice the length too much.
I would love to know what you think, so please comment. If you have an LJ account, you can comment there. If you don't have an LJ account, just comment here please, so I can reply to you. Thanks!
Oh! And needless to say, it's very spoilery. Quotes abound all throughout.
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Re: Snape is GOOD. My theory...
by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 13:17:23 )
Umm... bump.
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by - fizztop (Tue Aug 2 2005 13:53:22 )
great theory!!! really supports my thinking as well. well thought out and structured and the like.
one fly in the ointment... dumbledore sacricfices his life for snapes, cos snape (as the double agent) is more valuable to harry in his defeat of voldy. but if only dumbledore and sanpe knew of the plan for snape to kill dumbledore, who is EVER gona believe that snape killed dumbledore on dumbledores orders? harry will never trust snape, and i dont see a way around that. can you help?
so to conclude i love the theory!!
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by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 14:16:21 )
First of all, thank you! Both for reading (I thought no one would be able to, this board moves so fast!) and for the very nice feedback.
Second. Well, yes, you are right. It's going to be very difficult for anyone (not just Harry) to trust Snape now. But maybe it's better that way. Voldemort won't know what hits him until it's too late. Of course, the down side to that is Harry will only find out the truth about Snape at the very end, possibly at the point of Snape's death (which I imagine will be because he will try to protect Harry somehow). If that happens, well, I feel sorry for Snape but, if that's the way it should be then that's the way it should be.
Hmm... I don't know if that helped at all. Hehe.
Thanks again!
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by - pookala (Tue Aug 2 2005 14:20:00 )
My own theory tends to agree with yours. Harry won't find out what side Snape is really on until the end and Snape may very well die - either protecting Harry or more likely by helping him defeat LV. And I don't think we'll find out until the very end exactly why DD trusted Snape.
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by - mndngs (Tue Aug 2 2005 14:46:34 )
I've only read half of it so far, but it all makes perfect sense!! It's a great theory! I definetely agree with it! Great job!! I'll be sure to finish reading it later!!
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by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 15:04:27 )
pookala,
or more likely by helping him defeat LV.
Yes, you could be right. 'No Unforgivable Curses from you, Potter! You haven't got the nerve or the ability -' Remember? Yes, you definitely could be right.
Thanks for reading.
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by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 15:09:27 )
UPDATED Tue Aug 2 2005 15:10:49
mndngs,
Well then, thank you! And another thank you in advance. Hehe.
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by - sunbearbabe (Tue Aug 2 2005 15:36:35 )
I really like your ideas. I really like any ideas that prove Snape is good. I think the story would just be lost if he turns out to be evil. I really hope Snape doesn't die when he saves Harry. He deserves to live.
I still love the Half-Blood Prince
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by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 15:58:06 )
Thanks!
There's a part of me that hopes Snape won't die either. I agree with you, he deserves to live. But then that part of me also hoped Dumbledore won't... you know. Oh well. There is still hope. It's still possible. Let's cross our fingers.
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by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 16:57:31 )
One last bump for today. I'll be back tomorrow. Hopefully this post would not be in page 50 of the list or something then. Yeah, right. I wish!
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by - sushiactress (Tue Aug 2 2005 21:32:29 )
I really liked your theory! It made sense and tied everything together. Well done! Of course, I like any theory that proves Snape is good. He is one of my favorite characters of all time and I would HATE it if he turned out evil, or died in the end.
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by - mndngs (Tue Aug 2 2005 21:45:41 )
I finished reading your theory.. it's awesome.. I definetely agree with the whole thing. I love Snape, and I truly believe he is not evil. (it was just kind of weird how he got the DEs out of the school, and went away with them--but then again, he did have to leave somehow because e was teaching DADA, and it's cursed)
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by - avid_moviegoer (Wed Aug 3 2005 04:58:43 )
UPDATED Wed Aug 3 2005 05:33:32
This is a nice and exhaustive analysis. However, I tend to think people are missing the most obvious indicator of all that Snape is good. It is just not in Dumbledore's nature to be that wrong about anything. His role in these books is to be right about the important things and Snape's goodness/badness is certainly one of them.
Aside from that, Dumbledore's intuition and judge of character is generally super-powerful. He knew that Draco wouldn't have the nerve to kill him. He intuitively knew (we still don't know how) that he was needed at Hogwarts in Book 1 when Harry confronted Quirrel. The thing's he was the most wrong about were
(a) that Wormtail was a traitor,
(b) that Moody was being impersonated in Book 4,
but even in these cases he eventually grew wise to what was at up and certainly didn't swear up and down that these people were trustworthy, as with Snape.
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by - ltrahar (Wed Aug 3 2005 05:02:38 )
good one.
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by - pookala (Wed Aug 3 2005 05:12:24 )
I am bumping this up and encouraging EVERYONE to read (or re-read) your theory which is one of the most well thought out pieces of work I've read in a long time. The effort you put into this is remarkable and I applaud you!
You have put into words what I have believed and the only addition I have is what I noticed others have said in response to your LJ expose' and that is I believe, in the end, Snape will die helping Harry defeat the LV and it is only then that HArry realizes that Snape was on the side of good all along.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 14:43:36 )
A few tomorrows later...
Hehe. I'm back. Thanks for the bump. I'm glad you liked it. Thanks so much!
And I agree with what you added too.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 15:07:33 )
sushiactress,
Glad you liked it! Thank you!
I would hate it too if he turned out evil, but I really don't think that will be the case. It is (at least I think) very likely, though, that he will die in the end. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope not.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 15:19:07 )
mndngs,
Congratulations on finishing it! Hehe. And thanks!
it was just kind of weird how he got the DEs out of the school, and went away with them
How do you mean?
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by - eponine_t (Sat Aug 6 2005 15:34:03 )
I'm tend to agree... actually I'm thinking Fawkes may make a re-appearance. After all, if Fawkes were to come to Snape's call, wouldn't that prove he was, in fact, loyal to D? Just my 2 cents.
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by - gwyndyllyn (Sat Aug 6 2005 15:56:18 )
Speaking of phoenixes/phoenixai (or whatever the plural of phoenix)...I just have this feeling that a phoenix may be Snape's patronus. Total random speculation. We were told that his patronus would reveal too much. It's hard to guess exactly what that would be, other than a phoenix...like DD. If it was a snake we would just think...well...he is a Slytherin, after all. Just a feeling. It would be pretty funny if it was a lion...but I think maybe a phoenix would reveal too much.
I also was thinking that his boggart would be a dead Dumbledore lying in front of him. His boggart is also supposed to reveal too much. If I'm right, it would explain why he totally freaks when Harry calls him a coward. He's just brought about his worst fear. Just a guess.
It does make me wonder, though...what would you do for the riddikulus charm for that one? Imagine DD with really thick, obnoxious Christmas tree socks...that would probably do it for me.
BTW, I LOVE your analysis. If anyone reading this hasn't been to the original post...it's great and well worth the read. Also, I'm the unnamed poster with the comments about Hermione and Snape's fast healing. I just don't have an account on the other thing. Great analysis!!! Thank you for all of your time and care to link the quotes.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 15:57:41 )
avid_moviegoer,
Thanks!
Well, Dumbledore isn't perfect. He does make mistakes. But I agree with you and I believe that trusting Snape is NOT one of his mistakes.
Actually, I think all the mentions of Dumbledore making mistakes was done deliberately on JKR's part. It's meant to plant seeds of doubt about Dumbledore's judgment and about Snape's character. And from the reaction of people after book 6, I'd say it worked. Some people who thought Snape was bad all along think this is their proof. Some people who were on the fence about him are now leaning towards Snape being bad. And some people who believed Snape was good are now having doubts. Hmm... JKR is good, isn't she? Hehe. Well, you and I won't fall for that, right? But it helps to look at other evidences other than Dumbledore's judgment. And I think it still points to Snape being good, good, good!
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 16:09:32 )
ltrahar,
Hi! Umm... was that comment for me? Hehe. If it is, then thanks!
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 16:32:16 )
UPDATED Sat Aug 6 2005 16:45:35
eponine_t,
Hmm... that's interesting. I wonder where Fawkes went after he left. Snape? Hmm... Interesting, interesting, interesting. *imagination going wild* Hehe. But then that would be too weird. Imagine DEs entering Snape's house and seeing Dumbledore's phoenix there. Hehe. Hmm... It's probably more likely that Harry will inherit Fawkes or something. In any case, I agree with you. Fawkes will most probably make a re-appearance. And if he were to come at Snape's call, that would prove his loyalty.
... Ooh! Maybe that will happen towards the very end of book 7. And it will prove to Harry that Snape's on his side. Ooooohhhhhh! *imagination going wilder still*
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 16:56:12 )
UPDATED Sun Aug 7 2005 11:11:32
gwyndyllyn,
I had a similar thought about Snape's patronus, but maybe slightly different. I was thinking that whatever Snape's patronus is, it will change... to a phoenix. Hehe.
I haven't thought much about what his boggart could be. But let me just say your idea of how to make a dead DD look ridiculous made me laugh.
Thank you so much! And your comments were so good I just had to add it to the main post. Btw, I replied to your comment there, just in case you haven't seen it.
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by - freaky_deaky_plunger (Sat Aug 6 2005 17:06:01 )
I still reckon snopes a barstard. I mean OK, mebey he did make the number one sacerafice in order to proove his loyalty to the death eaters, save harry's life, as well as the wizarding world, BUT HE'S STILL A FRIKIN BARSTARD!!!!
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 7 2005 10:59:39 )
UPDATED Sun Aug 7 2005 11:08:08
Hehe. Ok.
I'm not saying he's a nice person anyway. But I do believe he's on the side of good.
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by - philtinajero-1 (Sun Aug 7 2005 11:35:31 )
Excellent theory. I agree with most of it.
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by - gwyndyllyn (Sun Aug 7 2005 13:45:00 )
Hello again, Opsat!
I did read your reply on the other post, which is when I realized that I had posted anonymously. Thank you again for your comments.
You have definitely inspired me. I'm going to try to re-read all the books looking for further evidence. I just finished my PhD exams yesterday (huzzah!) and can think of no better way to celebrate than Harry Potter speculation (other than the toga party of last night). So fun.
You might be right in that his patronus would change. You probably are right. There has to be a reason why Rowling included the piece about Tonks's patronus changing so that we can know it happens. There is very little in her books that isn't significant.
Also, another interesting piece...even though it is the movie rather than the book. We know that the only other person other than JKR who knows Snape's true deal is Alan Rickman (who is very good and disciplined and not telling). However, we know that he had to know early on so that he could play his part appropriately. So, even though it doesn't happen exactly the same way in the book, when werewolf Remus is about to attack the kids, he throws himself in front of them (despite having major werewolf fear thanks to the evil Sirius prank). I think that is a good indicator of his true loyalties. It may not be in the book the same way, but it couldn't CONFLICT with anything in the books.
This so reminds me of all my research trying to figure out the Eleusinian Mysteries. Nobody broke their vow of silence and they were destroyed almost 2000 years ago...so everything is negative evidence. I love it. At least this one, I get the answer in a couple years.
Thanks again. I really love your original post.
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by - gwyndyllyn (Fri Aug 12 2005 19:34:14 )
I've come across another interesting site that has some different information in it than what I have seen elsewhere.
http://www.davekopel.com/Misc/Mags/Severus-Snape-The-Unlikely-Hero-of-Harry-Potter-book-7.htm
I particularly like the way the author has tracked down names and legends. I'm in the process of going through all the earlier books looking for clues. It will take me a while to get my thoughts together.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 13 2005 11:08:52 )
UPDATED Sat Aug 13 2005 11:15:15
philtinajero-1,
Thanks!
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by - IL_Padrino_K (Sat Aug 13 2005 11:18:47 )
I agree. As much as Snape hates Harry mainly because he is James's son. He is trying to teach him at the end. About Occlemency and all. I do belive he was working for Dumbledore. And Dumbledore was not pleading for his life but was pleading for Snape to kill him. Harry being Harry will not believe any of this and will still always want to kill Snape
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 13 2005 13:52:26 )
UPDATED Sat Aug 13 2005 14:02:17
gwyndyllyn,
Hi!
First of all, congratulations Doctor!
About the changing patronuses. I think it would be very interesting if the Order members (and maybe even Harry) started receiving messages carried by a phoenix patronus. I wonder what they would think. Would they think that perhaps Dumbledore can send messages from beyond the grave? And then it would be interesting to know what their reactions would be if it turns out that the messages were in fact from Snape. Hehe. That would be a lot of fun! Heehee.
So, does Alan Rickman really know the true deal about Snape? Wow, lucky him! Hehe. But that's ok, we'll know soon enough too - a couple of years (hopefully). Anyway, I agree with what you said. Actually, after watching the movie and finding out that JKR apparently said that there's something in the movie that foreshadows things that will happen in the last 2 books, I thought that could be it - that Snape will somehow step in and protect/save Harry. (And come to think of it, maybe even Ron and Hermione.)
Ooh! I love mysteries. What are those Eleusinian Mysteries? (Forgive my ignorance.)
Thanks for that link you gave. Very interesting! Here are some thoughts:
- Sever a snake. Or perhaps, sever us snape? I'm thinking of the connection between Harry and Voldemort here. Half-baked thought though, that's all I have right now. Hehe.
- Yes, I agree with what he said about Snape and Narcissa. This is part of the reason why I still can not quite accept the Snape-loves-Lily theory. I believe that if Snape ever loved anyone, it was Narcissa (not Lily).
- His interpretation of Dumbledore's reactions to the potion was very interesting. I still don't know if I agree though, still have to think about it a bit more. My impression of that when I read it was that he was projecting someone else. (Excuse me but here I go again...) Snape perhaps? (Hehe. Sorry. This was the thought I had when I was gathering evidence for Snape.) I was thinking that Dumbledore was projecting what Snape was feeling when he found out how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy, or something like that. Hehe. (The part that goes: “It’s all my fault, all my fault…I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I’ll never, never again…Don’t hurt them…it’s my fault, hurt me instead…”) But anyway, his was a very interesting interpretation.
- Am with him in thinking the final Horcrux could be Harry's scar.
- I was thinking that R.A.B. is Regulus Black. But his theory is very, very interesting. I love that "Golden Legend" he mentioned. Wow. So maybe Snape gave himself another nickname other than HBP? It's possible. I accepted that whoever R.A.B was, he was a very powerful wizard. And Snape sure is a very powerful wizard. Very interesting.
Again, thanks so much for sharing that. And please do tell me what other evidence you find after going through the books again. I certainly can't do it right now. Just recently got myself a job so I'm very busy RL-wise right now, That's actually the reason why it took me a while to get back here. RL has greatly cut into my internet time. Hehe.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 13 2005 14:22:18 )
IL_Padrino_K,
Yes to all that. But perhaps at the very, very end, Harry will find out the truth and will not want to kill Snape. But if that will ever happen, it will probably be at the very end (as in maybe at the time when Snape is dying anyway), not anytime before. Such is Snape's life.
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by - mizz_steff (Sat Aug 13 2005 17:24:22 )
wow i totally agree with you, you tied up everything its relly good. and i think/hope snape is good and him and Harry will defeat Lv =) yay
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 14 2005 02:33:10 )
Thanks so much!
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by - marcko90000 (Sun Aug 14 2005 07:45:59 )
Couple of questions opsat (and I am someone who thinks Snape is evil), but I will ask one first.
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Because really, contrary to what Snape says, he DOES NOT KNOW the plan.
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If this is the case, wouldn't you think Snape would be in a little bit of trouble? He would after all be lying. So what was to happen if Bellatrix runs straight to Voldemort, asking if Snape knows about the plan?
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by - IL_Padrino_K (Sun Aug 14 2005 16:40:32 )
Thats what I hope too. That Harry will finally believe in Snape and deafeat LV together.
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by - gwyndyllyn (Sun Aug 14 2005 21:49:03 )
Hello opsat!
Thank you for the congrats and same to you for the new job! It does suck with RL interferes, though. I feel your pain on that one.
Alan Rickman has said in an interview that he does know the real deal about Snape but he's not telling. But I think it was important that he protects the kids in the movie because it couldn't contradict what his real motives were...especially since he know he is terrified of werewolves.
The Eleusinian Mysteries were the grandmother of all mystery religions in Greece..dedicated to Demeter and Persephone. They were supposed to give all who went through them knowledge about death so that any initiate would no longer fear them. Cicero said they were the most important gift the Greek's ever gave the world.
I also wondered if maybe the potion was revealing Snape's thoughts...because someone had been there before and the thoughts just sounded so full of remorse and repentence...and DD immediately wanted to get to him upon returning back, even before they knew there was a problem.
I'm going back through the books (have made it through the first 4) and hopefully will post what I find soon. There is one thing that jumped out at me, which goes perhaps with the Narcissa theory. In book 4 when Harry is outing the DE's to Fudge, when he mentions Lucius Malfoy, Snape reacts. I think there is some sort of connection with the Malfoy's that is beyond anything having to do with LV or DD. That would be interesting. Plus, he seems kind of happy (as happy as Snape ever is) to see Narcissa at his door.
I hadn't thought about the sever-us-snape...in relation to Harry's connection with LV. Very interesting. That would make some sense, too.
When I was thinking about Harry and LV's wands, it struck me that yew (LV's) is the wood of death in Druidism, and Harry's holly would be the wood of rebirth of the sun king - which would make sense. Also though, Snape's birthday is in January under Capricorn, which could make him the dying God that sacrifices himself so that life can revive - I'll have to think some more about that.
Probably the most compelling evidence in the other books that I've found so far (other than the incessant Harry saving activities) is that he shows up in the foe glass for Barty Crouch Jr., and is rooted to the floor in disbelief when he first sees that's who is the faux-Moody. Also, that, of his own initiative, he goes to Fudge and shows him the dark mark, trying to get the Ministry to act and stop LV...something that would make no sense to do if he really wanted LV to become all powerful again.
There's also DD's end of term speech at the end of GoF
"Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust."
Of course, Harry and Snape's EXTREME dislike of each other would be discord and enmity...so I think that's going to be the inner battle that Harry will have to fight in the last one. It's what keeps him from being truly loving...he would love to see Snape suffer.
I really ought to go to bed. Good luck with the new job! I'll hopefully write everything out sometime soon.
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by - faddypaddy (Mon Aug 15 2005 14:25:42 )
SNAPE IS EVIL!!!!!!!
Just getting your attention. Important - You have to really feel hate for someone to perform a forbidden curse on them, so I think in the end Harry will be capable off killing Voldemort in that way, but I dont know whether he'll choose too. And thats also why I'm confused, I belive Snape is good, but he wouldnt of been able to kill DD if he is. JK has written this so well, unlike other books, TV programs, and films (except for 'Lost') you really cant tell what the story will unfold.
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by - Chrstnvctr (Mon Aug 15 2005 20:51:51 )
Hello Opsat
Nice work!
I've been a supporter of Snape's from the beginning, and also want to believe there was a reason for what happent at the end of HBP. After all, it seems to me that the true nature of the character should only be revealed at the end, in the last book.
Still, there are some points that bother me about the whole thing:
1- As another reader pointed out, it is hard to understand why Dumbledore has never revealed to anyone (even McGonagall?) the reason why he trusted Snape - the possibilities that occur to me are that either it was not the warning about the interpretation Voldemort gave to the prophecy, but rather a much deeper secret so far yet unknown; or, what makes more sense in my opinion, Dumbledore suspected there was a traitor among his ranks at the Order.
2- How lucky were the Death Eaters that their trap was set do find Dumbledore, arguably one of the most powerful wizards in the world (feared even by Voldemort himself) exactly at his moment of grave weakness, after suffering the effects of the potion. I’m having a hard time believing it was all a coincidence…
3- As for the notion that Dumbledore considered himself less important than Harry and even Snape in the battle yet to come, I think there would have to be more than this to justify his sacrifice; perhaps the injury in his hand had more significance than he let people know? His supposed disposition to die makes more sense to me if he was in fact aware he did not have much time to live anyway.
And of course, there is still the hope of the ingenuous - what if Dumbledore did not die at all, and it was all a plan concocted to preserve Snape and give Voldemort a false sense of safety? Sadly, I don’t believe J.K. Rowling would be so nice. And to tell the true, if someone was to “return from the dead”, I would much rather have Sirius back.
Chris
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by - gwyndyllyn (Mon Aug 15 2005 21:09:59 )
A couple of comments in reply to some of the others:
1. To perform the unforgiveables you have to really mean it. Now, does that mean that you have to really want the person to die? If so...that wouldn't necessarily mean that Snape would have to hate DD...just really want him to die, a previously planned. Or, maybe it does require hatred, at which point, could his own loathing of himself and what he was going to do be powerful enough? The language (as many of pointed out) is so closely paralleled with Harry's own thoughts when feeding the poison to DD, suggests it may be revulsion and hatred at himself and the act. Also, its not like Snape couldn't dig up some serious anger at DD - like the way DD made him promise not to tell anyone about the near werewolf attack, which he absolutely believed was intended to kill him. So...I think there are many more complex ways of understandin this.
2. Why didn't he tell anyone what the real reason he trusted Snape was? Well, there might have been another spy that could have tipped of LV...OR Snape is the only one other than DD who is a good enough occulumens to teach Harry and get past LV. If ANYONE else (especially Harry with his connection and poor skills at occulmency) knew, it would put Snape at risk.
3. Justification for self-sacrifice - the fact that he was slowing down was the reason he gave (and Snape confirmed in his conversation with Narcissa and Bellatrix) for his injury...and it clearly hadn't healed. I think he realized that Snape would be better able to help Harry defeat LV in the end. The ULTIMATE suprise attack and Snape is a very powerful wizard himself...young (early 40's as opposed to 150) and likely to be right there, perfectly positioned in the final battle. It's the kind of sacrifice any General worthy of the title would choose.
4. The coincidental timing...that one is a little harder, but maybe it is. It was right before hand that Harry heard Draco celebrating that he had finally got the cabinets fixed. On the other hand, it is only after hearing that that DD decides to take that final trip. Maybe realizing that whatever Draco's plans were they were moving along (not knowing the specifics), he decided he couldn't delay showing Harry this next step. I think there was more of a sense of urgency in DD with all of that cave and the getting back (even before the Dark Mark was seen) than is typical. I don't think he knew the specifics (he wouldn't have let the school with all the students be invaded if he knew in that level of specificity), but he probably knew the end was coming. He seemed absolutely unsurprised by Draco preparing to kill him.
Those are my thoughts of the evening :-)
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by - sjstb03 (Mon Aug 15 2005 21:59:01 )
I have posted this before, maybe those here can help me. In the first Potions lesson in Book 1, Snape asks about several things. So far the only thing that hasnt had a very important effect is the Draught of Living Death. I know that it is a sleeping POTION, but what are its effects. Could this be what DD drank in the cave? Could this be why he wanted the best Potions wizard? Or like everyone said, he wanted Snape to kill him? However, why introduce us to the levicorpus spell. Also, in an earlier book it talks about the pictures of the headmasters and mistresses pictures being former....not necessarily dead, and DD looks asleep at the base of the tower, and is asleep in the picture, and floats off the tower....doesnt this all point towards something?
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by - the_darkest_shadow (Tue Aug 16 2005 07:05:43 )
It was an imposter DD... The real DD never went to the cave.
Dumbledore is not dead. It's Slughorn.
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by - vick3ie (Tue Aug 16 2005 10:47:57 )
UPDATED Fri Aug 26 2005 11:02:07
Woo hoo!!! Another 'Snape is good' theorist!
A few things...
{{I think when Draco is caught by Filch at Slughorn's Christmas party he had probably just planted the poisoned wine among Slughorn's things and was trying to make his escape. It is possible he was heading for the RoR, but if he thought the poison would work, that wouldn't be necessary.}}
*snipped for being dead-wrong* darned facts...
The Snape-Dumbledore argument as witnessed by Hagrid.
Like Harry later in the book, Snape has likely made a promise to Dumbledore to do whatever he asks no matter how it might seem to him. Orders is orders and Snape's not happy about it. Threatening to quit, Dumbledore hits him with the old 'you agreed to do this' ploy which would hit Snape where it hurts since I think he is a wee bit proud. Or maybe it's just his need for respect?
The sparing of Draco's innocence is not, I think, an intended action it just worked out that way. I don't think Dumbledore is the sort of person who would force Snape into killing because he shouldn't mind, having killed before. Dumbledore knows and respects Snape well enough that he would never make such an assumption. He knows this is hard for him which is why we get "Severus... please..."
Avada Kedavra
Absolutely, the a.k. does not cause events like we saw when Snape used it on Dumbledore. Because you must mean it, and Snape didn't want to kill Dumbledore. So, like nearly everything else the man does, the a.k. was a diversion intended to give the witnesses a certain impression which isn't terribly accurate.
Flitwick and Snape
Snape has no reason to harm anyone if he can help it. Flitwick was so emotionally charged he didn't even notice two students standing unguarded outside Snape's office. Snape noticed immediately, and had the presence of mind to send them to help Flitwick and get them out of the line of fire. He didn't even scold them for being in Slytherin country after hours. Surely that's at least a 20 point penalty?
The life debt
May or may not still be in effect after Snape's having saved Harry's life already in Book 1. I think he's still trying to help Harry because:
1. It's habit by now
2. He's a teacher, he is responsible for the students' safety.
3. He may have some reason known only to himself (The Lily/Snape theory)
4. Maybe a life debt among wizards doesn't ever expire?
[Meanwhile, Pettigrew's life debt to Harry should prove interesting eh?]
-Vick3ie
The 3 is silent.
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by - vick3ie (Tue Aug 16 2005 14:01:02 )
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Why didn't he tell anyone what the real reason he trusted Snape was?
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It was private, between Albus and Severus. Nobody else's business. Also as you pointed out, if anyone else knew what was really going on, Snape would be at horrendous risk. Not like he isn't anyway...
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The coincidental timing...that one is a little harder,
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The timing is only somewhat problematic. Dumbledore likely knew Draco was trying to kill him from fairly early on. I get the impression he pretty much knew what was going on via Snape, information gleaned from Harry and his own rather impressive investigative abilities. Therefore when it looked like Draco might be making another attempt, he had to make sure Harry had the next bit of vital information. Information without which his task could never succeed. So he made the decision to leave right then, after Harry got his cloak (and saved a few lives by sharing the Felix Felicis among his friends).
Even knowing that poor Draco was after him, he probably wasn't particularly worried about invasion by the DEs, the castle was impregnable (except for the forgotten vanishing cabinet and its mate in Diagon Alley, oops). In fact, I'd say that would have been the last thing on his mind. More frightening was the gathering of the next Horcrux which wasn't likely to be any easier than the other two.
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by - divk85 (Tue Aug 16 2005 15:34:44 )
I too believe in Snape's "goodness", I mean who if truly evil would take an Unbreakable Vow to protect a student at his own expence, especially if one was so loyal to Voldemort. I mean, Bellatrix said that she would let her own children die for Voldemort if she had any. and no one else would go through such a lengthy process of denying and reclaiming loyalty to Voldemort for 16 years if there was no reason behind it. Plus, would he truly be teaching at hogwarts all thsi time, and still be in the country by now if he was a total Voldemort supporter.
But hopefully Dumbledores Portrait spills before we see Harry kill Snape for betraying Dumbledore as Harry will stop at nothing to get Snape now.
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by - CAVincent (Thu Aug 18 2005 19:34:23 )
Sorry if this has already been discussed to death, but I haven't seen it.
Question: the Unbreakable Vow. Is it still in effect? As I read it, even though Draco's mission is done, Snape still remains bound to protect Draco. Which could get very interesting if LV is angry at Draco for not completely fullfilling his mission and especially for not having the stomach to murder.
Snape could find himself going from playing both sides to being hunted by everyone.
And... if LV expects Death Eaters to be loyal to him and him alone, he probably wouldn't be too happy to find out about the Vow, with anyone involved.
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by - Joekool60 (Thu Aug 18 2005 20:01:40 )
ok heres the thing if snape was good then why would he have been such an a** to harry all through out the books, i mean sure he hated harry's DEAD father and maybe his DEAD mother, but only 4 people know at least some of the exact wording in the prophecy, harry,dumbldore,snape,and voldemort, now i'm more than sure that snape was told by dumbledore and voldemort never to repeat the prophecy to anyone else, snape knows that harry and only harry can kill voldemort and if snape really were good and wanted voldemort gone forever he would at the very least just treat harry like an average student, not got out of his way to cause him trouble and try on many occasions to have harry expelled from school, i mean i definatly would never expect snape to treat harry like a prince or anything because of his knowledge of the prophecy but i think that snape hates harry because he is the son of james but harry is also gonna have to save everyone from voldemort so the two should kind of cancel each other out.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 20 2005 13:14:17 )
marcko90000,
Hello!
First of all, sorry for the late reply. Been very busy lately.
Ok. My answer then...
Well, maybe. Snape could be in a little bit of trouble (or maybe even a lot) by lying about his knowledge of the plan (or lack of it) to Bellatrix if she was to go running to Voldemort asking him if Snape indeed knew of the plan. The question is: will Bella do such a thing?
(1) The Death Eaters, even if in front of each other, they may brag about being close to Voldemort or some such thing, are actually afraid of him. Afraid. Take a look at the scene in OotP (ch. 26) where Rookwood tells Voldemort that Bode could never have been able to take the prophecy from the Department of Mysteries. Rookwood was trembling all over, clearly terrified even though he was not the one who initially gave the wrong information. In fact, his information was good, accurate, and very useful. Yet, I get the impression that he was afraid to even volunteer the info in the first place. He probably debated for a while before this about whether he should tell Voldemort the info or not, and was relieved only after Voldemort said, "You have done well to tell me this."
You see, I don't think the DEs are comfortable at all in volunteering information unless Voldemort asks them specifically for it. Much less do I think that they would have the nerve to question him regarding anything at all.
(2) But then, of course, Bellatrix claims to be 'his most loyal, his most faithful-', so maybe she's closer to Voldemort than the rest of the DEs, right?
But then, Snape has tested this supposition...
"You are avoiding my last question, Snape. Harry Potter. You could have killed him at any point in the past five years. You have not done it. Why?"
"Have you discussed this matter with the Dark Lord?" asked Snape.
"He... lately, we... I am asking you, Snape!"
... and it seems that lately, Bellatrix hasn't been on Voldemort's good side enough for her to be comfortable asking him about anything. Snape may have thought it relatively safe to bluff his way through at that time.
I don't think Bella will do it - run back to Voldemort and ask. Like I said in my theory, Voldemort doesn't need to explain himself to his DEs, and Bella can not really demand for explanations. Besides, going to Voldemort to ask him will be admitting that they have been discussing about the plan when he specifically told them not to. I don't think Bella would want to risk incriminating herself.
In any case, being a superb Occlumens is a very good thing, and it is essential for Snape.
You have another question? Ask away!
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 20 2005 15:24:18 )
faddypaddy,
Well, you certainly got my attention! Hehe.
Two things:
(1) About Snape using an Unforgivable Curse to kill Dumbledore. Two possible explanations: (a) He could have been channeling hate for something/someone else, hate for the act he was about to do, hate for himself, or hate for Dumbledore for making him do something he doesn't want to do. (b) It's possible that his Killing Curse was not enough to kill Dumbledore. Take note that I'm not saying Dumbledore is not dead. I'm just saying that Dumbledore did not die of the Killing Curse, he could have died from the fall.
(2) About Harry feeling hate enough to kill Voldemort in the end. Hmm... I don't know. I don't think so. I believe in what Dumbledore said that love is all Harry needs. That is his 'weapon'. I think what will happen in the end will be something we haven't seen yet so far. We'll see some different sort of magic. We'll see the true (magical) power of love. (Additionally, I don't think Harry will use his wand against Voldemort's.) I have no idea how that would look like but, well, I'm not JKR. Hehe.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 00:32:25 )
UPDATED Sun Aug 21 2005 11:00:04
Chrstnvctr,
First of all, thanks!
Now, the issues...
#1 - Hmm... I'm not really sure what to say. Hee. Umm... what exactly is it again that you find hard to understand?
I really don't find it hard to think that Dumbledore trusted Snape because he tipped him off regarding Voldemort's interpretation of the prophecy. Because doing so would definitely have led to Dumbledore trying to do something to keep the Potters safe and foiling Voldemort's plans. I really believe this could be the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape. I don't think he would trust Snape completely (and the operative word here is 'completely') if he didn't have anything concrete to back it up. Anyway, you could be right in that the reason could be something deeper/something else (or maybe that's it - maybe Snape was even more involved in trying to prevent the Potters' death than just giving the warning to Dumbledore?), or that Dumbledore may suspect there is a spy in the Order (although I don't think so and I don't see any evidence to this so far).
In any case, as to why Dumbledore didn't tell anyone (including McGonagall), I think the less people who know the truth (by truth here I mean the concrete proof), the better it is for Snape because there will be less potential sources of the truth for Voldemort. The down side, of course, is that practically everyone on the good side now thinks Snape is a traitor, but it's really ultimately for the best because the most strategic position for him (I think) is right next to Voldemort.
#2 - Hmm... I am now just realizing that it would be difficult to try to convince you because what you find hard to believe, I somehow just accept easily. Hehe. Oh my, how to do this, what to say? Hmm...
Uhm... first of all, Dumbledore did not expect the DEs would have any way of getting into the castle. He said so himself. "But you were saying... yes, you have managed to introduce Death Eaters into my school which, I admit, I thought impossible... how did you do it?" So, I think even though he knew what Draco's mission was and that he expected the time will come when Draco will try to confront him, I don't think he expected any considerable DE involvement.
I also don't think Dumbledore expected to find any trouble at Hogwarts when they returned from the cave. I really believe that he was initially looking for Snape because he wanted Snape to try to heal him (just like the time with the ring and his hand). But when Rosmerta pointed out the Dark Mark, notice that Dumbledore's concern suddenly shifted from himself to (probably) the situation and the people at the school. He clearly did not expect the appearance of the Dark Mark.
On Draco and the DEs' part, I don't think it was specifically planned that they would enter the castle on that particular night. It just so happened that it was on that night that Draco finally succeeded in making the cabinet work. And then through communication with Rosmerta, they find out that Dumbledore has gone to Hogsmeade and thought to lure him back using a Dark Mark. I don't think it occurred to any of them at all that Dumbledore had gone to anywhere beyond Hogsmeade that night. So, actually, I think it is all coincidence. Yes, the DEs were very lucky. *shrugs*
As for Snape, I don't even think he knew that Dumbledore was leaving the school that night. I get the impression that Dumbledore is like that. He doesn't really inform other people about what he does unless he thinks it's absolutely necessary to do so. This is somehow confirmed by what JKR said in her interview (Leaky/Mugglenet): "In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He’s always the one who gives, he’s always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal." So, again, I don't think Dumbledore sees the need to inform other people of his plans. That particular night, all he told McGonagall, etc. was that he was going to be gone for a few hours so they should patrol the corridors. That's it. No details. And McGonagall, etc. on their part did not even think to question Dumbledore. They just did what he asked them to do. (Hmm... that somehow makes Dumbledore similar to Voldemort in a way, doesn't it? But their different because the DEs don't dare question Voldemort because they fear him, Dumbledore's people don't question him because they respect him. Anyway, that's beside the point. Going back...)
But I really don't even think Snape was one of the teachers Dumbledore informed regarding his leaving the school for a few hours. His instructions to Harry at the tower was "Go and wake Severus. Tell him what has happened and bring him to me. Do nothing else, speak to nobody else and do not remove your Cloak. I shall wait here." Dumbledore knew Snape would be asleep at the time. And he was right (most probably), Snape was in his quarters when Flitwick went down to fetch him. (Incidentally, I'd like to mention here that I believe Dumbledore was referring to McGonagall and co. when he gave the instructions that Harry do nothing else, speak to nobody else. He fully expected Harry would pass by the patrolling teachers on his way down.) Anyway, my point is: you seem to be thinking that perhaps Snape informed Draco and the DEs that Dumbledore would be leaving on that particular night and that he is expected to return considerably weakened from whatever he had to do to retrieve the Horcrux. Is that about right? Well, I don't see how that's possible seeing Snape didn't even know Dumbledore would be leaving that night, much less that he'll be going for a Horcrux that night.
#3 - I encounter a lot of people who think the same way - that it makes more sense that Dumbledore would sacrifice himself because he's dying anyway. While I don't completely discount this possibility, I still believe in the argument I put forward - that he considered himself less important. I just somehow feel it is a nobler sacrifice if Dumbledore chose to die because of a reason other than 'because he was dying anyway'. I feel it's something Dumbledore would do.
Lastly, (hehe) I would miss Dumbledore greatly, but I don't think he would come back. No. He is dead. I believe that to be a fact.
There. Ooh! Sorry that was so long.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 10:54:25 )
gwyndyllyn,
Ah! Thanks for trying to answer some of the issues brought forth. You bring up some very good points once again. I agree with most (if not all) of them. Thanks!
Hmm... I'm really starting to like this Snape and Narcissa idea a lot. Much, much better and more likely, I think, than a Snape/Lily thing. Yeah. Hehe.
And yes, I agree that there is a connection between Snape and the Malfoys that is separate from anything to do with Voldemort and Dumbledore. That would be very interesting indeed. I wonder if we'll find out more about that in book 7. Hmm... perhaps. Yet another thing to look forward to. Can't wait!
... the dying God that sacrifices himself so that life can revive...
Wow! Now, that's very interesting.
Harry and Snape's EXTREME dislike of each other would be discord and enmity...so I think that's going to be the inner battle that Harry will have to fight in the last one.
Hmm... yes, I agree!
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 12:18:10 )
sjstb03,
Hmm... interesting.
"For your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." [PS/SS, ch. 8]
I think from that we can try to figure out what its effects could be. It's a very powerful sleeping potion that when taken would make someone look/seem dead when in fact, they're only sleeping. Maybe it puts someone in a state of hibernation - brings down the temperature, pulse rate, slows metabolism. (Something like that.)
Now, you're suggesting that maybe that was the potion Dumbledore drank and that he may, in fact, still be alive? Is that it? Well, let's see.
(1) How long is the interval between when Dumbledore drank the potion and when he (well, let's just say, for argument's sake) fell-asleep-and-looked-as-though-he-were-dead (let's put this around the time when Dumbledore was at the bottom of the tower, or after the Killing Curse)? That's a long time. In between, Dumbledore (and Harry) had to battle with the Inferi, get back across the lake, swim out from the cave, apparate back to Hogsmeade, get to the castle, and chat with Draco and the DEs. That's a long, long time. Shouldn't a sleeping potion have taken effect almost immediately?
We have encountered at least one time when a sleeping potion was used. The following example is from GoF [ch. 36]:
"You'll need to drink all of this. Harry," she said. "It's a potion for dreamless sleep."
Harry took the goblet and drank a few mouthfuls. He felt himself becoming drowsy at once. Everything around him became hazy; the lamps around the hospital wing seemed to be winking at him in a friendly way through the screen around his bed; his body felt as though it was sinking deeper into the warmth of the feather matress. Before he could finish the potion, before he could say another word, his exhaustion had carried him off to sleep.
I expect that a sleeping potion as powerful as the Draught of Living Death would take effect as quickly (or even more quickly) than this.
(2) You mentioned that this could be the reason why Dumbledore wanted the best Potions wizard when they got back. Hmm... I don't think so. Dumbledore wanted Snape not because he was the best Potions wizard, but because he knew a lot about the Dark Arts (and defense against it, I expect). Dumbledore wanted Snape for the exact same reason he went to him after the ring incident (his withered hand), and the same reason why Snape (and not Madam Pomfrey) was the one who treated Katie Bell after the necklace incident. I don't think this has anything to do with Snape's being a Potions master at all. Instead, this has everything to do with Snape's knowledge of the Dark Arts. (And may I just add here that I believe, when they initially got back from the cave, Dumbledore wanted Snape to heal him, not to kill him. Not yet, at least.)
(3) You may have a point there when you noted that portraits that appear in the Headmaster's office are those of former, not necessarily dead, headmasters and headmistresses. You may be right. It may be possible that if a headmaster/mistress did not (well) die in office (for example, he retired), his portrait may still appear in the office, even though he's not yet dead. Here, however, I don't think that is the case.
Dumbledore looked asleep at the base of the tower. Well, yes. But he was also 'spread-eagled, broken', his arms and legs were at a strange angle, and he had a trickle of blood from his mouth.
He was asleep in the picture. Well, the portraits do have a habit of doing that, right? In fact, the others have been described numerous times as snoring and even drooling. Hehehe.
He floated off the tower. Hmm... did he? Well, it seemed in Harry's pov that Dumbledore hung for a split second under the Dark Mark and then fell slowly backwards. But somehow I think, this is just sort of the case where one sees things in slow motion but things don't really happen that way. Anyway, I go back to the fact that Dumbledore had a trickle of blood coming from his mouth. I'm sure this points to some sort of internal injuries from the fall.
In any case, I think that the implication of what you said is certainly possible - that the fact the Draught of Living Death was mentioned in PS/SS could mean it will have some sort of use in the story. I don't think it was the potion from the cave, but I think perhaps we'll see it in book 7. It would be interesting to see how it would figure in the story.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 12:33:27 )
the_darkest_shadow,
LOL!
(You are kidding, aren't you?)
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 13:33:53 )
vick3ie,
Hi!
I think I will disagree with you on just this one thing:
I think when Draco is caught by Filch at Slughorn's Christmas party he had probably just planted the poisoned wine among Slughorn's things and was trying to make his escape. It is possible he was heading for the RoR, but if he thought the poison would work, that wouldn't be necessary.
For one thing, Draco did not plant the poisoned wine among Slughorn's things. I believe the mead was something Slughorn ordered from Madam Rosmerta for the specific purpose of giving it to Dumbledore as a Christmas present. So, when Draco found out that Slughorn placed such an order, he told Rosmerta to poison the mead before sending it to Slughorn.
Dumbledore said up in the tower: "And the poisoned mead... well, naturally, Rosmerta was able to poison it for you before she sent the bottle to Slughorn, believing that it was to be my Christmas present... yes, very neat... very neat... poor Mr. Filch would not, of course, think to check a bottle of Rosmerta's... tell me, how have you been communicating with Rosmerta?"
Also, I doubt that Draco really thought the poisoned mead would reach it's target. Remember, fixing the Vanishing Cabinet to give the DEs access into the castle was Draco's primary plan. The necklace and the poisoned mead were just things he resorted to when he felt he was getting nowhere with fixing the cabinet and was getting desperate.
(I don't completely agree with the interpretation of the argument, but that's ok, really.)
He didn't even scold them for being in Slytherin country after hours. Surely that's at least a 20 point penalty?
Haha! You're right! Of course, it was a very tense moment, what with a battle going on upstairs. But Snape letting go of the opportunity to take points, or even just to be nasty? Unthinkable!
1. It's habit by now
2. He's a teacher, he is responsible for the students' safety.
Hehe. Yes. Like I was saying, he's gone soft in Hogwarts. (Btw, I mean that in a good way.)
Man, that Snape/Lily theory sure is popular! Hehe. Don't mind me, I'm just not a fan of it.
Pettigrew's life debt to Harry. Yes, it should prove interesting. And I believe it's going to be a big thing.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 14:11:28 )
vick3ie,
I agree with you on your take on that second issue. Dumbledore really wasn't worried about DEs getting into the castle. He thought it was impossible, he said so himself. Anyway, I believe he thought it imperative that they leave then for two very important reasons: (1) to retrieve the Horcrux, of course, and (2) to give Harry his practical lesson of how to go about retrieving a Horcrux. Because I'm sure Dumbledore knew that the time will soon come when Harry would need to be able to do that without him.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 18:28:56 )
CAVincent,
Hmm... I haven't thought about that. I wonder how strict the vow is with regards to wording? The parts of Snape's Unbreakable Vow are as follows:
(a) "Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?"
(b) "And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"
(c) "And, should it prove necessary... if it seems Draco will fail... will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"
If the vow is very strict with the wording, I suppose the first and last parts will be done with. But the second part may still be in effect. Hmm... that would be very interesting, yes.
In any case, I'm pretty sure, Snape will get in some sort trouble with Voldemort one way or another. But that's where his Occlumency skills will come in. He'll be able to think up some perfect excuse, I'm sure.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 18:32:33 )
Joekool60,
Hehe. Ok, wait! I'm going here on the premise that there's good and there's nice, and that it's possible to be 'good' without being nice. Ok? Umm... I don't really have an answer for you now regarding why Snape has been really nasty (in other words, hasn't been nice) to Harry all throughout the years. I don't know. Perhaps he is just too bitter a person to forgive and forget his past with James and co.
Now, just wanted to say something about the prophecy 'cause I think Snape's knowledge of it is your basis for saying what you said. According to Dumbledore, the eavesdropper (Snape, that is) only heard and relayed to Voldemort the first half of the prophecy. "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..." It's possible that that is still (up until the present) the only part of the prophecy that Snape knows. I doubt that Dumbledore ever told him the rest of the prophecy. So, I expect that only two people have heard the prophecy in its entirety - Dumbledore and Harry. Snape doesn't necessarily know that "either must die at the hand of the other...". All he may know for sure is that Harry is "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord". Hmm... did that, in any way, clear up the issue? I have to say I'm not entirely sure I understood what you said. Hee. I think I may have gotten lost somewhere in the middle (or something).
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by - xaviereverett (Sun Aug 21 2005 18:37:53 )
How strict is the wording of the Unbreakable Vow?
If, say Dumbledore had died from the effects of the potion...what would have happened?
Draco would have failed to kill Dumbledore (unless the potion is all part of Draco's big plan) and Snape would be unable to kill him...doesn't that mean that Snape would have died had Dumbledore died from the effects of the potion?
Now, if Dumbledore knew this, then maybe that's why he asked for Snape - not to heal him, but so that he could finish off the job before he died of the potion's effects...
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Continue with the second half here.
=)
Ok. As I said in the Nov. 1 ETA of the July 29 entry (In Defense of Snape), this is a copy of my thread in IMDb (as I last saw it before it disappeared). I'm putting it here in case anyone's interested in the discussions.
Apparently, it's too long for just one entry here, so this is just the first half of it.
Posts are arranged chronologically.
Board: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (2008)
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Snape is GOOD. My theory...
by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 11:53:56 )
Hello!
I came back here to the HP boards just yesterday, so... There must have been millions (well, maybe not millions) of theories regarding Snape. I wonder, would anyone care for another one? This is my own version, where I try to examine and explain what Snape and Dumbledore said and did.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/opsat/14826.html
Please check it out. It's quite long, but some people have said it's a good read so hopefully you won't notice the length too much.
I would love to know what you think, so please comment. If you have an LJ account, you can comment there. If you don't have an LJ account, just comment here please, so I can reply to you. Thanks!
Oh! And needless to say, it's very spoilery. Quotes abound all throughout.
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Re: Snape is GOOD. My theory...
by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 13:17:23 )
Umm... bump.
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by - fizztop (Tue Aug 2 2005 13:53:22 )
great theory!!! really supports my thinking as well. well thought out and structured and the like.
one fly in the ointment... dumbledore sacricfices his life for snapes, cos snape (as the double agent) is more valuable to harry in his defeat of voldy. but if only dumbledore and sanpe knew of the plan for snape to kill dumbledore, who is EVER gona believe that snape killed dumbledore on dumbledores orders? harry will never trust snape, and i dont see a way around that. can you help?
so to conclude i love the theory!!
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by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 14:16:21 )
First of all, thank you! Both for reading (I thought no one would be able to, this board moves so fast!) and for the very nice feedback.
Second. Well, yes, you are right. It's going to be very difficult for anyone (not just Harry) to trust Snape now. But maybe it's better that way. Voldemort won't know what hits him until it's too late. Of course, the down side to that is Harry will only find out the truth about Snape at the very end, possibly at the point of Snape's death (which I imagine will be because he will try to protect Harry somehow). If that happens, well, I feel sorry for Snape but, if that's the way it should be then that's the way it should be.
Hmm... I don't know if that helped at all. Hehe.
Thanks again!
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by - pookala (Tue Aug 2 2005 14:20:00 )
My own theory tends to agree with yours. Harry won't find out what side Snape is really on until the end and Snape may very well die - either protecting Harry or more likely by helping him defeat LV. And I don't think we'll find out until the very end exactly why DD trusted Snape.
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by - mndngs (Tue Aug 2 2005 14:46:34 )
I've only read half of it so far, but it all makes perfect sense!! It's a great theory! I definetely agree with it! Great job!! I'll be sure to finish reading it later!!
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by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 15:04:27 )
pookala,
or more likely by helping him defeat LV.
Yes, you could be right. 'No Unforgivable Curses from you, Potter! You haven't got the nerve or the ability -' Remember? Yes, you definitely could be right.
Thanks for reading.
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by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 15:09:27 )
UPDATED Tue Aug 2 2005 15:10:49
mndngs,
Well then, thank you! And another thank you in advance. Hehe.
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by - sunbearbabe (Tue Aug 2 2005 15:36:35 )
I really like your ideas. I really like any ideas that prove Snape is good. I think the story would just be lost if he turns out to be evil. I really hope Snape doesn't die when he saves Harry. He deserves to live.
I still love the Half-Blood Prince
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by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 15:58:06 )
Thanks!
There's a part of me that hopes Snape won't die either. I agree with you, he deserves to live. But then that part of me also hoped Dumbledore won't... you know. Oh well. There is still hope. It's still possible. Let's cross our fingers.
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by - opsat (Tue Aug 2 2005 16:57:31 )
One last bump for today. I'll be back tomorrow. Hopefully this post would not be in page 50 of the list or something then. Yeah, right. I wish!
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by - sushiactress (Tue Aug 2 2005 21:32:29 )
I really liked your theory! It made sense and tied everything together. Well done! Of course, I like any theory that proves Snape is good. He is one of my favorite characters of all time and I would HATE it if he turned out evil, or died in the end.
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by - mndngs (Tue Aug 2 2005 21:45:41 )
I finished reading your theory.. it's awesome.. I definetely agree with the whole thing. I love Snape, and I truly believe he is not evil. (it was just kind of weird how he got the DEs out of the school, and went away with them--but then again, he did have to leave somehow because e was teaching DADA, and it's cursed)
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by - avid_moviegoer (Wed Aug 3 2005 04:58:43 )
UPDATED Wed Aug 3 2005 05:33:32
This is a nice and exhaustive analysis. However, I tend to think people are missing the most obvious indicator of all that Snape is good. It is just not in Dumbledore's nature to be that wrong about anything. His role in these books is to be right about the important things and Snape's goodness/badness is certainly one of them.
Aside from that, Dumbledore's intuition and judge of character is generally super-powerful. He knew that Draco wouldn't have the nerve to kill him. He intuitively knew (we still don't know how) that he was needed at Hogwarts in Book 1 when Harry confronted Quirrel. The thing's he was the most wrong about were
(a) that Wormtail was a traitor,
(b) that Moody was being impersonated in Book 4,
but even in these cases he eventually grew wise to what was at up and certainly didn't swear up and down that these people were trustworthy, as with Snape.
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by - ltrahar (Wed Aug 3 2005 05:02:38 )
good one.
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by - pookala (Wed Aug 3 2005 05:12:24 )
I am bumping this up and encouraging EVERYONE to read (or re-read) your theory which is one of the most well thought out pieces of work I've read in a long time. The effort you put into this is remarkable and I applaud you!
You have put into words what I have believed and the only addition I have is what I noticed others have said in response to your LJ expose' and that is I believe, in the end, Snape will die helping Harry defeat the LV and it is only then that HArry realizes that Snape was on the side of good all along.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 14:43:36 )
A few tomorrows later...
Hehe. I'm back. Thanks for the bump. I'm glad you liked it. Thanks so much!
And I agree with what you added too.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 15:07:33 )
sushiactress,
Glad you liked it! Thank you!
I would hate it too if he turned out evil, but I really don't think that will be the case. It is (at least I think) very likely, though, that he will die in the end. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope not.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 15:19:07 )
mndngs,
Congratulations on finishing it! Hehe. And thanks!
it was just kind of weird how he got the DEs out of the school, and went away with them
How do you mean?
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by - eponine_t (Sat Aug 6 2005 15:34:03 )
I'm tend to agree... actually I'm thinking Fawkes may make a re-appearance. After all, if Fawkes were to come to Snape's call, wouldn't that prove he was, in fact, loyal to D? Just my 2 cents.
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by - gwyndyllyn (Sat Aug 6 2005 15:56:18 )
Speaking of phoenixes/phoenixai (or whatever the plural of phoenix)...I just have this feeling that a phoenix may be Snape's patronus. Total random speculation. We were told that his patronus would reveal too much. It's hard to guess exactly what that would be, other than a phoenix...like DD. If it was a snake we would just think...well...he is a Slytherin, after all. Just a feeling. It would be pretty funny if it was a lion...but I think maybe a phoenix would reveal too much.
I also was thinking that his boggart would be a dead Dumbledore lying in front of him. His boggart is also supposed to reveal too much. If I'm right, it would explain why he totally freaks when Harry calls him a coward. He's just brought about his worst fear. Just a guess.
It does make me wonder, though...what would you do for the riddikulus charm for that one? Imagine DD with really thick, obnoxious Christmas tree socks...that would probably do it for me.
BTW, I LOVE your analysis. If anyone reading this hasn't been to the original post...it's great and well worth the read. Also, I'm the unnamed poster with the comments about Hermione and Snape's fast healing. I just don't have an account on the other thing. Great analysis!!! Thank you for all of your time and care to link the quotes.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 15:57:41 )
avid_moviegoer,
Thanks!
Well, Dumbledore isn't perfect. He does make mistakes. But I agree with you and I believe that trusting Snape is NOT one of his mistakes.
Actually, I think all the mentions of Dumbledore making mistakes was done deliberately on JKR's part. It's meant to plant seeds of doubt about Dumbledore's judgment and about Snape's character. And from the reaction of people after book 6, I'd say it worked. Some people who thought Snape was bad all along think this is their proof. Some people who were on the fence about him are now leaning towards Snape being bad. And some people who believed Snape was good are now having doubts. Hmm... JKR is good, isn't she? Hehe. Well, you and I won't fall for that, right? But it helps to look at other evidences other than Dumbledore's judgment. And I think it still points to Snape being good, good, good!
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 16:09:32 )
ltrahar,
Hi! Umm... was that comment for me? Hehe. If it is, then thanks!
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 16:32:16 )
UPDATED Sat Aug 6 2005 16:45:35
eponine_t,
Hmm... that's interesting. I wonder where Fawkes went after he left. Snape? Hmm... Interesting, interesting, interesting. *imagination going wild* Hehe. But then that would be too weird. Imagine DEs entering Snape's house and seeing Dumbledore's phoenix there. Hehe. Hmm... It's probably more likely that Harry will inherit Fawkes or something. In any case, I agree with you. Fawkes will most probably make a re-appearance. And if he were to come at Snape's call, that would prove his loyalty.
... Ooh! Maybe that will happen towards the very end of book 7. And it will prove to Harry that Snape's on his side. Ooooohhhhhh! *imagination going wilder still*
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 6 2005 16:56:12 )
UPDATED Sun Aug 7 2005 11:11:32
gwyndyllyn,
I had a similar thought about Snape's patronus, but maybe slightly different. I was thinking that whatever Snape's patronus is, it will change... to a phoenix. Hehe.
I haven't thought much about what his boggart could be. But let me just say your idea of how to make a dead DD look ridiculous made me laugh.
Thank you so much! And your comments were so good I just had to add it to the main post. Btw, I replied to your comment there, just in case you haven't seen it.
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by - freaky_deaky_plunger (Sat Aug 6 2005 17:06:01 )
I still reckon snopes a barstard. I mean OK, mebey he did make the number one sacerafice in order to proove his loyalty to the death eaters, save harry's life, as well as the wizarding world, BUT HE'S STILL A FRIKIN BARSTARD!!!!
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 7 2005 10:59:39 )
UPDATED Sun Aug 7 2005 11:08:08
Hehe. Ok.
I'm not saying he's a nice person anyway. But I do believe he's on the side of good.
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by - philtinajero-1 (Sun Aug 7 2005 11:35:31 )
Excellent theory. I agree with most of it.
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by - gwyndyllyn (Sun Aug 7 2005 13:45:00 )
Hello again, Opsat!
I did read your reply on the other post, which is when I realized that I had posted anonymously. Thank you again for your comments.
You have definitely inspired me. I'm going to try to re-read all the books looking for further evidence. I just finished my PhD exams yesterday (huzzah!) and can think of no better way to celebrate than Harry Potter speculation (other than the toga party of last night). So fun.
You might be right in that his patronus would change. You probably are right. There has to be a reason why Rowling included the piece about Tonks's patronus changing so that we can know it happens. There is very little in her books that isn't significant.
Also, another interesting piece...even though it is the movie rather than the book. We know that the only other person other than JKR who knows Snape's true deal is Alan Rickman (who is very good and disciplined and not telling). However, we know that he had to know early on so that he could play his part appropriately. So, even though it doesn't happen exactly the same way in the book, when werewolf Remus is about to attack the kids, he throws himself in front of them (despite having major werewolf fear thanks to the evil Sirius prank). I think that is a good indicator of his true loyalties. It may not be in the book the same way, but it couldn't CONFLICT with anything in the books.
This so reminds me of all my research trying to figure out the Eleusinian Mysteries. Nobody broke their vow of silence and they were destroyed almost 2000 years ago...so everything is negative evidence. I love it. At least this one, I get the answer in a couple years.
Thanks again. I really love your original post.
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by - gwyndyllyn (Fri Aug 12 2005 19:34:14 )
I've come across another interesting site that has some different information in it than what I have seen elsewhere.
http://www.davekopel.com/Misc/Mags/Severus-Snape-The-Unlikely-Hero-of-Harry-Potter-book-7.htm
I particularly like the way the author has tracked down names and legends. I'm in the process of going through all the earlier books looking for clues. It will take me a while to get my thoughts together.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 13 2005 11:08:52 )
UPDATED Sat Aug 13 2005 11:15:15
philtinajero-1,
Thanks!
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by - IL_Padrino_K (Sat Aug 13 2005 11:18:47 )
I agree. As much as Snape hates Harry mainly because he is James's son. He is trying to teach him at the end. About Occlemency and all. I do belive he was working for Dumbledore. And Dumbledore was not pleading for his life but was pleading for Snape to kill him. Harry being Harry will not believe any of this and will still always want to kill Snape
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 13 2005 13:52:26 )
UPDATED Sat Aug 13 2005 14:02:17
gwyndyllyn,
Hi!
First of all, congratulations Doctor!
About the changing patronuses. I think it would be very interesting if the Order members (and maybe even Harry) started receiving messages carried by a phoenix patronus. I wonder what they would think. Would they think that perhaps Dumbledore can send messages from beyond the grave? And then it would be interesting to know what their reactions would be if it turns out that the messages were in fact from Snape. Hehe. That would be a lot of fun! Heehee.
So, does Alan Rickman really know the true deal about Snape? Wow, lucky him! Hehe. But that's ok, we'll know soon enough too - a couple of years (hopefully). Anyway, I agree with what you said. Actually, after watching the movie and finding out that JKR apparently said that there's something in the movie that foreshadows things that will happen in the last 2 books, I thought that could be it - that Snape will somehow step in and protect/save Harry. (And come to think of it, maybe even Ron and Hermione.)
Ooh! I love mysteries. What are those Eleusinian Mysteries? (Forgive my ignorance.)
Thanks for that link you gave. Very interesting! Here are some thoughts:
- Sever a snake. Or perhaps, sever us snape? I'm thinking of the connection between Harry and Voldemort here. Half-baked thought though, that's all I have right now. Hehe.
- Yes, I agree with what he said about Snape and Narcissa. This is part of the reason why I still can not quite accept the Snape-loves-Lily theory. I believe that if Snape ever loved anyone, it was Narcissa (not Lily).
- His interpretation of Dumbledore's reactions to the potion was very interesting. I still don't know if I agree though, still have to think about it a bit more. My impression of that when I read it was that he was projecting someone else. (Excuse me but here I go again...) Snape perhaps? (Hehe. Sorry. This was the thought I had when I was gathering evidence for Snape.) I was thinking that Dumbledore was projecting what Snape was feeling when he found out how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy, or something like that. Hehe. (The part that goes: “It’s all my fault, all my fault…I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I’ll never, never again…Don’t hurt them…it’s my fault, hurt me instead…”) But anyway, his was a very interesting interpretation.
- Am with him in thinking the final Horcrux could be Harry's scar.
- I was thinking that R.A.B. is Regulus Black. But his theory is very, very interesting. I love that "Golden Legend" he mentioned. Wow. So maybe Snape gave himself another nickname other than HBP? It's possible. I accepted that whoever R.A.B was, he was a very powerful wizard. And Snape sure is a very powerful wizard. Very interesting.
Again, thanks so much for sharing that. And please do tell me what other evidence you find after going through the books again. I certainly can't do it right now. Just recently got myself a job so I'm very busy RL-wise right now, That's actually the reason why it took me a while to get back here. RL has greatly cut into my internet time. Hehe.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 13 2005 14:22:18 )
IL_Padrino_K,
Yes to all that. But perhaps at the very, very end, Harry will find out the truth and will not want to kill Snape. But if that will ever happen, it will probably be at the very end (as in maybe at the time when Snape is dying anyway), not anytime before. Such is Snape's life.
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by - mizz_steff (Sat Aug 13 2005 17:24:22 )
wow i totally agree with you, you tied up everything its relly good. and i think/hope snape is good and him and Harry will defeat Lv =) yay
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 14 2005 02:33:10 )
Thanks so much!
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by - marcko90000 (Sun Aug 14 2005 07:45:59 )
Couple of questions opsat (and I am someone who thinks Snape is evil), but I will ask one first.
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Because really, contrary to what Snape says, he DOES NOT KNOW the plan.
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If this is the case, wouldn't you think Snape would be in a little bit of trouble? He would after all be lying. So what was to happen if Bellatrix runs straight to Voldemort, asking if Snape knows about the plan?
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by - IL_Padrino_K (Sun Aug 14 2005 16:40:32 )
Thats what I hope too. That Harry will finally believe in Snape and deafeat LV together.
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by - gwyndyllyn (Sun Aug 14 2005 21:49:03 )
Hello opsat!
Thank you for the congrats and same to you for the new job! It does suck with RL interferes, though. I feel your pain on that one.
Alan Rickman has said in an interview that he does know the real deal about Snape but he's not telling. But I think it was important that he protects the kids in the movie because it couldn't contradict what his real motives were...especially since he know he is terrified of werewolves.
The Eleusinian Mysteries were the grandmother of all mystery religions in Greece..dedicated to Demeter and Persephone. They were supposed to give all who went through them knowledge about death so that any initiate would no longer fear them. Cicero said they were the most important gift the Greek's ever gave the world.
I also wondered if maybe the potion was revealing Snape's thoughts...because someone had been there before and the thoughts just sounded so full of remorse and repentence...and DD immediately wanted to get to him upon returning back, even before they knew there was a problem.
I'm going back through the books (have made it through the first 4) and hopefully will post what I find soon. There is one thing that jumped out at me, which goes perhaps with the Narcissa theory. In book 4 when Harry is outing the DE's to Fudge, when he mentions Lucius Malfoy, Snape reacts. I think there is some sort of connection with the Malfoy's that is beyond anything having to do with LV or DD. That would be interesting. Plus, he seems kind of happy (as happy as Snape ever is) to see Narcissa at his door.
I hadn't thought about the sever-us-snape...in relation to Harry's connection with LV. Very interesting. That would make some sense, too.
When I was thinking about Harry and LV's wands, it struck me that yew (LV's) is the wood of death in Druidism, and Harry's holly would be the wood of rebirth of the sun king - which would make sense. Also though, Snape's birthday is in January under Capricorn, which could make him the dying God that sacrifices himself so that life can revive - I'll have to think some more about that.
Probably the most compelling evidence in the other books that I've found so far (other than the incessant Harry saving activities) is that he shows up in the foe glass for Barty Crouch Jr., and is rooted to the floor in disbelief when he first sees that's who is the faux-Moody. Also, that, of his own initiative, he goes to Fudge and shows him the dark mark, trying to get the Ministry to act and stop LV...something that would make no sense to do if he really wanted LV to become all powerful again.
There's also DD's end of term speech at the end of GoF
"Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust."
Of course, Harry and Snape's EXTREME dislike of each other would be discord and enmity...so I think that's going to be the inner battle that Harry will have to fight in the last one. It's what keeps him from being truly loving...he would love to see Snape suffer.
I really ought to go to bed. Good luck with the new job! I'll hopefully write everything out sometime soon.
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by - faddypaddy (Mon Aug 15 2005 14:25:42 )
SNAPE IS EVIL!!!!!!!
Just getting your attention. Important - You have to really feel hate for someone to perform a forbidden curse on them, so I think in the end Harry will be capable off killing Voldemort in that way, but I dont know whether he'll choose too. And thats also why I'm confused, I belive Snape is good, but he wouldnt of been able to kill DD if he is. JK has written this so well, unlike other books, TV programs, and films (except for 'Lost') you really cant tell what the story will unfold.
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by - Chrstnvctr (Mon Aug 15 2005 20:51:51 )
Hello Opsat
Nice work!
I've been a supporter of Snape's from the beginning, and also want to believe there was a reason for what happent at the end of HBP. After all, it seems to me that the true nature of the character should only be revealed at the end, in the last book.
Still, there are some points that bother me about the whole thing:
1- As another reader pointed out, it is hard to understand why Dumbledore has never revealed to anyone (even McGonagall?) the reason why he trusted Snape - the possibilities that occur to me are that either it was not the warning about the interpretation Voldemort gave to the prophecy, but rather a much deeper secret so far yet unknown; or, what makes more sense in my opinion, Dumbledore suspected there was a traitor among his ranks at the Order.
2- How lucky were the Death Eaters that their trap was set do find Dumbledore, arguably one of the most powerful wizards in the world (feared even by Voldemort himself) exactly at his moment of grave weakness, after suffering the effects of the potion. I’m having a hard time believing it was all a coincidence…
3- As for the notion that Dumbledore considered himself less important than Harry and even Snape in the battle yet to come, I think there would have to be more than this to justify his sacrifice; perhaps the injury in his hand had more significance than he let people know? His supposed disposition to die makes more sense to me if he was in fact aware he did not have much time to live anyway.
And of course, there is still the hope of the ingenuous - what if Dumbledore did not die at all, and it was all a plan concocted to preserve Snape and give Voldemort a false sense of safety? Sadly, I don’t believe J.K. Rowling would be so nice. And to tell the true, if someone was to “return from the dead”, I would much rather have Sirius back.
Chris
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by - gwyndyllyn (Mon Aug 15 2005 21:09:59 )
A couple of comments in reply to some of the others:
1. To perform the unforgiveables you have to really mean it. Now, does that mean that you have to really want the person to die? If so...that wouldn't necessarily mean that Snape would have to hate DD...just really want him to die, a previously planned. Or, maybe it does require hatred, at which point, could his own loathing of himself and what he was going to do be powerful enough? The language (as many of pointed out) is so closely paralleled with Harry's own thoughts when feeding the poison to DD, suggests it may be revulsion and hatred at himself and the act. Also, its not like Snape couldn't dig up some serious anger at DD - like the way DD made him promise not to tell anyone about the near werewolf attack, which he absolutely believed was intended to kill him. So...I think there are many more complex ways of understandin this.
2. Why didn't he tell anyone what the real reason he trusted Snape was? Well, there might have been another spy that could have tipped of LV...OR Snape is the only one other than DD who is a good enough occulumens to teach Harry and get past LV. If ANYONE else (especially Harry with his connection and poor skills at occulmency) knew, it would put Snape at risk.
3. Justification for self-sacrifice - the fact that he was slowing down was the reason he gave (and Snape confirmed in his conversation with Narcissa and Bellatrix) for his injury...and it clearly hadn't healed. I think he realized that Snape would be better able to help Harry defeat LV in the end. The ULTIMATE suprise attack and Snape is a very powerful wizard himself...young (early 40's as opposed to 150) and likely to be right there, perfectly positioned in the final battle. It's the kind of sacrifice any General worthy of the title would choose.
4. The coincidental timing...that one is a little harder, but maybe it is. It was right before hand that Harry heard Draco celebrating that he had finally got the cabinets fixed. On the other hand, it is only after hearing that that DD decides to take that final trip. Maybe realizing that whatever Draco's plans were they were moving along (not knowing the specifics), he decided he couldn't delay showing Harry this next step. I think there was more of a sense of urgency in DD with all of that cave and the getting back (even before the Dark Mark was seen) than is typical. I don't think he knew the specifics (he wouldn't have let the school with all the students be invaded if he knew in that level of specificity), but he probably knew the end was coming. He seemed absolutely unsurprised by Draco preparing to kill him.
Those are my thoughts of the evening :-)
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by - sjstb03 (Mon Aug 15 2005 21:59:01 )
I have posted this before, maybe those here can help me. In the first Potions lesson in Book 1, Snape asks about several things. So far the only thing that hasnt had a very important effect is the Draught of Living Death. I know that it is a sleeping POTION, but what are its effects. Could this be what DD drank in the cave? Could this be why he wanted the best Potions wizard? Or like everyone said, he wanted Snape to kill him? However, why introduce us to the levicorpus spell. Also, in an earlier book it talks about the pictures of the headmasters and mistresses pictures being former....not necessarily dead, and DD looks asleep at the base of the tower, and is asleep in the picture, and floats off the tower....doesnt this all point towards something?
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by - the_darkest_shadow (Tue Aug 16 2005 07:05:43 )
It was an imposter DD... The real DD never went to the cave.
Dumbledore is not dead. It's Slughorn.
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by - vick3ie (Tue Aug 16 2005 10:47:57 )
UPDATED Fri Aug 26 2005 11:02:07
Woo hoo!!! Another 'Snape is good' theorist!
A few things...
{{I think when Draco is caught by Filch at Slughorn's Christmas party he had probably just planted the poisoned wine among Slughorn's things and was trying to make his escape. It is possible he was heading for the RoR, but if he thought the poison would work, that wouldn't be necessary.}}
*snipped for being dead-wrong* darned facts...
The Snape-Dumbledore argument as witnessed by Hagrid.
Like Harry later in the book, Snape has likely made a promise to Dumbledore to do whatever he asks no matter how it might seem to him. Orders is orders and Snape's not happy about it. Threatening to quit, Dumbledore hits him with the old 'you agreed to do this' ploy which would hit Snape where it hurts since I think he is a wee bit proud. Or maybe it's just his need for respect?
The sparing of Draco's innocence is not, I think, an intended action it just worked out that way. I don't think Dumbledore is the sort of person who would force Snape into killing because he shouldn't mind, having killed before. Dumbledore knows and respects Snape well enough that he would never make such an assumption. He knows this is hard for him which is why we get "Severus... please..."
Avada Kedavra
Absolutely, the a.k. does not cause events like we saw when Snape used it on Dumbledore. Because you must mean it, and Snape didn't want to kill Dumbledore. So, like nearly everything else the man does, the a.k. was a diversion intended to give the witnesses a certain impression which isn't terribly accurate.
Flitwick and Snape
Snape has no reason to harm anyone if he can help it. Flitwick was so emotionally charged he didn't even notice two students standing unguarded outside Snape's office. Snape noticed immediately, and had the presence of mind to send them to help Flitwick and get them out of the line of fire. He didn't even scold them for being in Slytherin country after hours. Surely that's at least a 20 point penalty?
The life debt
May or may not still be in effect after Snape's having saved Harry's life already in Book 1. I think he's still trying to help Harry because:
1. It's habit by now
2. He's a teacher, he is responsible for the students' safety.
3. He may have some reason known only to himself (The Lily/Snape theory)
4. Maybe a life debt among wizards doesn't ever expire?
[Meanwhile, Pettigrew's life debt to Harry should prove interesting eh?]
-Vick3ie
The 3 is silent.
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by - vick3ie (Tue Aug 16 2005 14:01:02 )
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Why didn't he tell anyone what the real reason he trusted Snape was?
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It was private, between Albus and Severus. Nobody else's business. Also as you pointed out, if anyone else knew what was really going on, Snape would be at horrendous risk. Not like he isn't anyway...
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The coincidental timing...that one is a little harder,
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The timing is only somewhat problematic. Dumbledore likely knew Draco was trying to kill him from fairly early on. I get the impression he pretty much knew what was going on via Snape, information gleaned from Harry and his own rather impressive investigative abilities. Therefore when it looked like Draco might be making another attempt, he had to make sure Harry had the next bit of vital information. Information without which his task could never succeed. So he made the decision to leave right then, after Harry got his cloak (and saved a few lives by sharing the Felix Felicis among his friends).
Even knowing that poor Draco was after him, he probably wasn't particularly worried about invasion by the DEs, the castle was impregnable (except for the forgotten vanishing cabinet and its mate in Diagon Alley, oops). In fact, I'd say that would have been the last thing on his mind. More frightening was the gathering of the next Horcrux which wasn't likely to be any easier than the other two.
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by - divk85 (Tue Aug 16 2005 15:34:44 )
I too believe in Snape's "goodness", I mean who if truly evil would take an Unbreakable Vow to protect a student at his own expence, especially if one was so loyal to Voldemort. I mean, Bellatrix said that she would let her own children die for Voldemort if she had any. and no one else would go through such a lengthy process of denying and reclaiming loyalty to Voldemort for 16 years if there was no reason behind it. Plus, would he truly be teaching at hogwarts all thsi time, and still be in the country by now if he was a total Voldemort supporter.
But hopefully Dumbledores Portrait spills before we see Harry kill Snape for betraying Dumbledore as Harry will stop at nothing to get Snape now.
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by - CAVincent (Thu Aug 18 2005 19:34:23 )
Sorry if this has already been discussed to death, but I haven't seen it.
Question: the Unbreakable Vow. Is it still in effect? As I read it, even though Draco's mission is done, Snape still remains bound to protect Draco. Which could get very interesting if LV is angry at Draco for not completely fullfilling his mission and especially for not having the stomach to murder.
Snape could find himself going from playing both sides to being hunted by everyone.
And... if LV expects Death Eaters to be loyal to him and him alone, he probably wouldn't be too happy to find out about the Vow, with anyone involved.
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by - Joekool60 (Thu Aug 18 2005 20:01:40 )
ok heres the thing if snape was good then why would he have been such an a** to harry all through out the books, i mean sure he hated harry's DEAD father and maybe his DEAD mother, but only 4 people know at least some of the exact wording in the prophecy, harry,dumbldore,snape,and voldemort, now i'm more than sure that snape was told by dumbledore and voldemort never to repeat the prophecy to anyone else, snape knows that harry and only harry can kill voldemort and if snape really were good and wanted voldemort gone forever he would at the very least just treat harry like an average student, not got out of his way to cause him trouble and try on many occasions to have harry expelled from school, i mean i definatly would never expect snape to treat harry like a prince or anything because of his knowledge of the prophecy but i think that snape hates harry because he is the son of james but harry is also gonna have to save everyone from voldemort so the two should kind of cancel each other out.
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 20 2005 13:14:17 )
marcko90000,
Hello!
First of all, sorry for the late reply. Been very busy lately.
Ok. My answer then...
Well, maybe. Snape could be in a little bit of trouble (or maybe even a lot) by lying about his knowledge of the plan (or lack of it) to Bellatrix if she was to go running to Voldemort asking him if Snape indeed knew of the plan. The question is: will Bella do such a thing?
(1) The Death Eaters, even if in front of each other, they may brag about being close to Voldemort or some such thing, are actually afraid of him. Afraid. Take a look at the scene in OotP (ch. 26) where Rookwood tells Voldemort that Bode could never have been able to take the prophecy from the Department of Mysteries. Rookwood was trembling all over, clearly terrified even though he was not the one who initially gave the wrong information. In fact, his information was good, accurate, and very useful. Yet, I get the impression that he was afraid to even volunteer the info in the first place. He probably debated for a while before this about whether he should tell Voldemort the info or not, and was relieved only after Voldemort said, "You have done well to tell me this."
You see, I don't think the DEs are comfortable at all in volunteering information unless Voldemort asks them specifically for it. Much less do I think that they would have the nerve to question him regarding anything at all.
(2) But then, of course, Bellatrix claims to be 'his most loyal, his most faithful-', so maybe she's closer to Voldemort than the rest of the DEs, right?
But then, Snape has tested this supposition...
"You are avoiding my last question, Snape. Harry Potter. You could have killed him at any point in the past five years. You have not done it. Why?"
"Have you discussed this matter with the Dark Lord?" asked Snape.
"He... lately, we... I am asking you, Snape!"
... and it seems that lately, Bellatrix hasn't been on Voldemort's good side enough for her to be comfortable asking him about anything. Snape may have thought it relatively safe to bluff his way through at that time.
I don't think Bella will do it - run back to Voldemort and ask. Like I said in my theory, Voldemort doesn't need to explain himself to his DEs, and Bella can not really demand for explanations. Besides, going to Voldemort to ask him will be admitting that they have been discussing about the plan when he specifically told them not to. I don't think Bella would want to risk incriminating herself.
In any case, being a superb Occlumens is a very good thing, and it is essential for Snape.
You have another question? Ask away!
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by - opsat (Sat Aug 20 2005 15:24:18 )
faddypaddy,
Well, you certainly got my attention! Hehe.
Two things:
(1) About Snape using an Unforgivable Curse to kill Dumbledore. Two possible explanations: (a) He could have been channeling hate for something/someone else, hate for the act he was about to do, hate for himself, or hate for Dumbledore for making him do something he doesn't want to do. (b) It's possible that his Killing Curse was not enough to kill Dumbledore. Take note that I'm not saying Dumbledore is not dead. I'm just saying that Dumbledore did not die of the Killing Curse, he could have died from the fall.
(2) About Harry feeling hate enough to kill Voldemort in the end. Hmm... I don't know. I don't think so. I believe in what Dumbledore said that love is all Harry needs. That is his 'weapon'. I think what will happen in the end will be something we haven't seen yet so far. We'll see some different sort of magic. We'll see the true (magical) power of love. (Additionally, I don't think Harry will use his wand against Voldemort's.) I have no idea how that would look like but, well, I'm not JKR. Hehe.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 00:32:25 )
UPDATED Sun Aug 21 2005 11:00:04
Chrstnvctr,
First of all, thanks!
Now, the issues...
#1 - Hmm... I'm not really sure what to say. Hee. Umm... what exactly is it again that you find hard to understand?
I really don't find it hard to think that Dumbledore trusted Snape because he tipped him off regarding Voldemort's interpretation of the prophecy. Because doing so would definitely have led to Dumbledore trying to do something to keep the Potters safe and foiling Voldemort's plans. I really believe this could be the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape. I don't think he would trust Snape completely (and the operative word here is 'completely') if he didn't have anything concrete to back it up. Anyway, you could be right in that the reason could be something deeper/something else (or maybe that's it - maybe Snape was even more involved in trying to prevent the Potters' death than just giving the warning to Dumbledore?), or that Dumbledore may suspect there is a spy in the Order (although I don't think so and I don't see any evidence to this so far).
In any case, as to why Dumbledore didn't tell anyone (including McGonagall), I think the less people who know the truth (by truth here I mean the concrete proof), the better it is for Snape because there will be less potential sources of the truth for Voldemort. The down side, of course, is that practically everyone on the good side now thinks Snape is a traitor, but it's really ultimately for the best because the most strategic position for him (I think) is right next to Voldemort.
#2 - Hmm... I am now just realizing that it would be difficult to try to convince you because what you find hard to believe, I somehow just accept easily. Hehe. Oh my, how to do this, what to say? Hmm...
Uhm... first of all, Dumbledore did not expect the DEs would have any way of getting into the castle. He said so himself. "But you were saying... yes, you have managed to introduce Death Eaters into my school which, I admit, I thought impossible... how did you do it?" So, I think even though he knew what Draco's mission was and that he expected the time will come when Draco will try to confront him, I don't think he expected any considerable DE involvement.
I also don't think Dumbledore expected to find any trouble at Hogwarts when they returned from the cave. I really believe that he was initially looking for Snape because he wanted Snape to try to heal him (just like the time with the ring and his hand). But when Rosmerta pointed out the Dark Mark, notice that Dumbledore's concern suddenly shifted from himself to (probably) the situation and the people at the school. He clearly did not expect the appearance of the Dark Mark.
On Draco and the DEs' part, I don't think it was specifically planned that they would enter the castle on that particular night. It just so happened that it was on that night that Draco finally succeeded in making the cabinet work. And then through communication with Rosmerta, they find out that Dumbledore has gone to Hogsmeade and thought to lure him back using a Dark Mark. I don't think it occurred to any of them at all that Dumbledore had gone to anywhere beyond Hogsmeade that night. So, actually, I think it is all coincidence. Yes, the DEs were very lucky. *shrugs*
As for Snape, I don't even think he knew that Dumbledore was leaving the school that night. I get the impression that Dumbledore is like that. He doesn't really inform other people about what he does unless he thinks it's absolutely necessary to do so. This is somehow confirmed by what JKR said in her interview (Leaky/Mugglenet): "In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He’s always the one who gives, he’s always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal." So, again, I don't think Dumbledore sees the need to inform other people of his plans. That particular night, all he told McGonagall, etc. was that he was going to be gone for a few hours so they should patrol the corridors. That's it. No details. And McGonagall, etc. on their part did not even think to question Dumbledore. They just did what he asked them to do. (Hmm... that somehow makes Dumbledore similar to Voldemort in a way, doesn't it? But their different because the DEs don't dare question Voldemort because they fear him, Dumbledore's people don't question him because they respect him. Anyway, that's beside the point. Going back...)
But I really don't even think Snape was one of the teachers Dumbledore informed regarding his leaving the school for a few hours. His instructions to Harry at the tower was "Go and wake Severus. Tell him what has happened and bring him to me. Do nothing else, speak to nobody else and do not remove your Cloak. I shall wait here." Dumbledore knew Snape would be asleep at the time. And he was right (most probably), Snape was in his quarters when Flitwick went down to fetch him. (Incidentally, I'd like to mention here that I believe Dumbledore was referring to McGonagall and co. when he gave the instructions that Harry do nothing else, speak to nobody else. He fully expected Harry would pass by the patrolling teachers on his way down.) Anyway, my point is: you seem to be thinking that perhaps Snape informed Draco and the DEs that Dumbledore would be leaving on that particular night and that he is expected to return considerably weakened from whatever he had to do to retrieve the Horcrux. Is that about right? Well, I don't see how that's possible seeing Snape didn't even know Dumbledore would be leaving that night, much less that he'll be going for a Horcrux that night.
#3 - I encounter a lot of people who think the same way - that it makes more sense that Dumbledore would sacrifice himself because he's dying anyway. While I don't completely discount this possibility, I still believe in the argument I put forward - that he considered himself less important. I just somehow feel it is a nobler sacrifice if Dumbledore chose to die because of a reason other than 'because he was dying anyway'. I feel it's something Dumbledore would do.
Lastly, (hehe) I would miss Dumbledore greatly, but I don't think he would come back. No. He is dead. I believe that to be a fact.
There. Ooh! Sorry that was so long.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 10:54:25 )
gwyndyllyn,
Ah! Thanks for trying to answer some of the issues brought forth. You bring up some very good points once again. I agree with most (if not all) of them. Thanks!
Hmm... I'm really starting to like this Snape and Narcissa idea a lot. Much, much better and more likely, I think, than a Snape/Lily thing. Yeah. Hehe.
And yes, I agree that there is a connection between Snape and the Malfoys that is separate from anything to do with Voldemort and Dumbledore. That would be very interesting indeed. I wonder if we'll find out more about that in book 7. Hmm... perhaps. Yet another thing to look forward to. Can't wait!
... the dying God that sacrifices himself so that life can revive...
Wow! Now, that's very interesting.
Harry and Snape's EXTREME dislike of each other would be discord and enmity...so I think that's going to be the inner battle that Harry will have to fight in the last one.
Hmm... yes, I agree!
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 12:18:10 )
sjstb03,
Hmm... interesting.
"For your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." [PS/SS, ch. 8]
I think from that we can try to figure out what its effects could be. It's a very powerful sleeping potion that when taken would make someone look/seem dead when in fact, they're only sleeping. Maybe it puts someone in a state of hibernation - brings down the temperature, pulse rate, slows metabolism. (Something like that.)
Now, you're suggesting that maybe that was the potion Dumbledore drank and that he may, in fact, still be alive? Is that it? Well, let's see.
(1) How long is the interval between when Dumbledore drank the potion and when he (well, let's just say, for argument's sake) fell-asleep-and-looked-as-though-he-were-dead (let's put this around the time when Dumbledore was at the bottom of the tower, or after the Killing Curse)? That's a long time. In between, Dumbledore (and Harry) had to battle with the Inferi, get back across the lake, swim out from the cave, apparate back to Hogsmeade, get to the castle, and chat with Draco and the DEs. That's a long, long time. Shouldn't a sleeping potion have taken effect almost immediately?
We have encountered at least one time when a sleeping potion was used. The following example is from GoF [ch. 36]:
"You'll need to drink all of this. Harry," she said. "It's a potion for dreamless sleep."
Harry took the goblet and drank a few mouthfuls. He felt himself becoming drowsy at once. Everything around him became hazy; the lamps around the hospital wing seemed to be winking at him in a friendly way through the screen around his bed; his body felt as though it was sinking deeper into the warmth of the feather matress. Before he could finish the potion, before he could say another word, his exhaustion had carried him off to sleep.
I expect that a sleeping potion as powerful as the Draught of Living Death would take effect as quickly (or even more quickly) than this.
(2) You mentioned that this could be the reason why Dumbledore wanted the best Potions wizard when they got back. Hmm... I don't think so. Dumbledore wanted Snape not because he was the best Potions wizard, but because he knew a lot about the Dark Arts (and defense against it, I expect). Dumbledore wanted Snape for the exact same reason he went to him after the ring incident (his withered hand), and the same reason why Snape (and not Madam Pomfrey) was the one who treated Katie Bell after the necklace incident. I don't think this has anything to do with Snape's being a Potions master at all. Instead, this has everything to do with Snape's knowledge of the Dark Arts. (And may I just add here that I believe, when they initially got back from the cave, Dumbledore wanted Snape to heal him, not to kill him. Not yet, at least.)
(3) You may have a point there when you noted that portraits that appear in the Headmaster's office are those of former, not necessarily dead, headmasters and headmistresses. You may be right. It may be possible that if a headmaster/mistress did not (well) die in office (for example, he retired), his portrait may still appear in the office, even though he's not yet dead. Here, however, I don't think that is the case.
Dumbledore looked asleep at the base of the tower. Well, yes. But he was also 'spread-eagled, broken', his arms and legs were at a strange angle, and he had a trickle of blood from his mouth.
He was asleep in the picture. Well, the portraits do have a habit of doing that, right? In fact, the others have been described numerous times as snoring and even drooling. Hehehe.
He floated off the tower. Hmm... did he? Well, it seemed in Harry's pov that Dumbledore hung for a split second under the Dark Mark and then fell slowly backwards. But somehow I think, this is just sort of the case where one sees things in slow motion but things don't really happen that way. Anyway, I go back to the fact that Dumbledore had a trickle of blood coming from his mouth. I'm sure this points to some sort of internal injuries from the fall.
In any case, I think that the implication of what you said is certainly possible - that the fact the Draught of Living Death was mentioned in PS/SS could mean it will have some sort of use in the story. I don't think it was the potion from the cave, but I think perhaps we'll see it in book 7. It would be interesting to see how it would figure in the story.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 12:33:27 )
the_darkest_shadow,
LOL!
(You are kidding, aren't you?)
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 13:33:53 )
vick3ie,
Hi!
I think I will disagree with you on just this one thing:
I think when Draco is caught by Filch at Slughorn's Christmas party he had probably just planted the poisoned wine among Slughorn's things and was trying to make his escape. It is possible he was heading for the RoR, but if he thought the poison would work, that wouldn't be necessary.
For one thing, Draco did not plant the poisoned wine among Slughorn's things. I believe the mead was something Slughorn ordered from Madam Rosmerta for the specific purpose of giving it to Dumbledore as a Christmas present. So, when Draco found out that Slughorn placed such an order, he told Rosmerta to poison the mead before sending it to Slughorn.
Dumbledore said up in the tower: "And the poisoned mead... well, naturally, Rosmerta was able to poison it for you before she sent the bottle to Slughorn, believing that it was to be my Christmas present... yes, very neat... very neat... poor Mr. Filch would not, of course, think to check a bottle of Rosmerta's... tell me, how have you been communicating with Rosmerta?"
Also, I doubt that Draco really thought the poisoned mead would reach it's target. Remember, fixing the Vanishing Cabinet to give the DEs access into the castle was Draco's primary plan. The necklace and the poisoned mead were just things he resorted to when he felt he was getting nowhere with fixing the cabinet and was getting desperate.
(I don't completely agree with the interpretation of the argument, but that's ok, really.)
He didn't even scold them for being in Slytherin country after hours. Surely that's at least a 20 point penalty?
Haha! You're right! Of course, it was a very tense moment, what with a battle going on upstairs. But Snape letting go of the opportunity to take points, or even just to be nasty? Unthinkable!
1. It's habit by now
2. He's a teacher, he is responsible for the students' safety.
Hehe. Yes. Like I was saying, he's gone soft in Hogwarts. (Btw, I mean that in a good way.)
Man, that Snape/Lily theory sure is popular! Hehe. Don't mind me, I'm just not a fan of it.
Pettigrew's life debt to Harry. Yes, it should prove interesting. And I believe it's going to be a big thing.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 14:11:28 )
vick3ie,
I agree with you on your take on that second issue. Dumbledore really wasn't worried about DEs getting into the castle. He thought it was impossible, he said so himself. Anyway, I believe he thought it imperative that they leave then for two very important reasons: (1) to retrieve the Horcrux, of course, and (2) to give Harry his practical lesson of how to go about retrieving a Horcrux. Because I'm sure Dumbledore knew that the time will soon come when Harry would need to be able to do that without him.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 18:28:56 )
CAVincent,
Hmm... I haven't thought about that. I wonder how strict the vow is with regards to wording? The parts of Snape's Unbreakable Vow are as follows:
(a) "Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?"
(b) "And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"
(c) "And, should it prove necessary... if it seems Draco will fail... will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"
If the vow is very strict with the wording, I suppose the first and last parts will be done with. But the second part may still be in effect. Hmm... that would be very interesting, yes.
In any case, I'm pretty sure, Snape will get in some sort trouble with Voldemort one way or another. But that's where his Occlumency skills will come in. He'll be able to think up some perfect excuse, I'm sure.
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by - opsat (Sun Aug 21 2005 18:32:33 )
Joekool60,
Hehe. Ok, wait! I'm going here on the premise that there's good and there's nice, and that it's possible to be 'good' without being nice. Ok? Umm... I don't really have an answer for you now regarding why Snape has been really nasty (in other words, hasn't been nice) to Harry all throughout the years. I don't know. Perhaps he is just too bitter a person to forgive and forget his past with James and co.
Now, just wanted to say something about the prophecy 'cause I think Snape's knowledge of it is your basis for saying what you said. According to Dumbledore, the eavesdropper (Snape, that is) only heard and relayed to Voldemort the first half of the prophecy. "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..." It's possible that that is still (up until the present) the only part of the prophecy that Snape knows. I doubt that Dumbledore ever told him the rest of the prophecy. So, I expect that only two people have heard the prophecy in its entirety - Dumbledore and Harry. Snape doesn't necessarily know that "either must die at the hand of the other...". All he may know for sure is that Harry is "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord". Hmm... did that, in any way, clear up the issue? I have to say I'm not entirely sure I understood what you said. Hee. I think I may have gotten lost somewhere in the middle (or something).
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by - xaviereverett (Sun Aug 21 2005 18:37:53 )
How strict is the wording of the Unbreakable Vow?
If, say Dumbledore had died from the effects of the potion...what would have happened?
Draco would have failed to kill Dumbledore (unless the potion is all part of Draco's big plan) and Snape would be unable to kill him...doesn't that mean that Snape would have died had Dumbledore died from the effects of the potion?
Now, if Dumbledore knew this, then maybe that's why he asked for Snape - not to heal him, but so that he could finish off the job before he died of the potion's effects...
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Continue with the second half here.