There are times I get bothered and/or puzzled not so much by the content of certain requests but rather by the assumptions that seem present in them. Or, more accurately, I can't quite determine what's part of the request and what's just an assumption of the OP.
Let me explain: this applies to other bits of characterisation too, but chiefly I'm thinking of requests for yaoi pairings with stated top/bottom preferences, when the OP seems to think the preferred position is actually wildly implausible for the character, needing special circumstances to happen.
Which is quite fine with me if the OP genuinely thinks so, but... it's just that I don't always get whether the response must share those assumptions as well, tailoring the fic for it - or if it's also okay with a response from a writer who happens to think that position is eminently plausible for the character/pairing in question, thus feels no need to write in those special circumstances?
Honestly, either way is okay, it's just that it's not always clear to me what the OP wants. So, a little more clarity for those types of requests would be much appreciated.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 19 2009, 13:16:24 UTC
As the requester of several bottom-Zoro prompts (including the "Zoro demands to be fucked because he loves it but everyone always expect him to top" one), I can say that nothing would make me happier than reading about a Zoro who is willing and eager to be fucked up the butt simply because he likes it. I choose to see Zoro as someone who would happily make/let someone fuck him if that's what makes him hot (I choose to see most characters like that, because sexuality is a complicated thing), and I've had it hammered into me by real life gay men that a guy's build, clothes or even behavior can't be used as a way of telling whether he would like to bottom or not. Something about Zoro's looks and personality makes me happy in my pants when I read about him bottoming. I don't think there's anything weird about it.
However, I've experienced that the majority of fandom don't see things that way. Many people simply expect Zoro to top because he's a big manly man. Comments are dropped everywhere about how people can't see Zoro as anything but a top, and some people are even confused when they see Luffy/Zoro, Sanji/Zoro or Usopp/Zoro in fic or art, because "it's supposed to be the other way around". The thought that a big, muscular man could be turned on by the thought of having his more slender lover fuck him is, apparently, completely foreign to them.
This can become a problem for someone who wants to read about Zoro getting fucked. So I have requested Zoro affected by sex pollen or something to help people wrap their heads around the thought and make my chances of getting to read about bottom-Zoro a bit higher. I would be fine both with a Zoro who goes "SOMEBODY FUCK ME! NOW!" and one who goes "Noooo! Why the hell do I want people to fuck me?"
Uhm... I ramble, and now I'm not sure if I understood the question to begin with. But I guess you could always ask the OP (and hope that they see it) if it would be okay to write the character the way you see him. Or what exactly do you mean when you say "clarity"? I'm guessing a response to a request asking for sex pollen is expected to actually feature sex pollen. Would you feel comfortable providing us with an example of a request that puzzled you?
Re: Assumptions (OP)
anonymous
April 19 2009, 13:32:51 UTC
It's quite ironic that I can't express myself very clearly in a post that asks others to do so. My apologies.
However, I've experienced that the majority of fandom don't see things that way.
So I have requested Zoro affected by sex pollen or something to help people wrap their heads around the thought and make my chances of getting to read about bottom-Zoro a bit higher.
(nods) That's kinda the vibe I've thought I've gotten from at least some of those requests (and yeah, I'm thinking of things like bottom-Zoro, but also top-Usopp, etc), but sometimes it's hard to tell.
At the same time, I agree that if you ask for sex pollen, sex pollen is what you should get. That's cool with me. But requests aren't always quite that specific.
...sorry, I don't have a specific example in mind right now. This is just something I've seen here and there on these threads that sometimes niggles at me.
And yes, of course I could always ask the OP. But to be honest *embarrassed look*, this isn't just to determine whether I'd personally write something or not (I'm actually really bad at explicit smut, so I'd only answer the ones where the OP is fine with more implied, suggestive stuff), but also if I think it's worth checking out what someone else might have written to fill the prompt.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 19 2009, 18:06:04 UTC
Some people also like to see Sanji, Luffy or Usopp get fucked. YMMV but the size/manliness comparison doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it.
I personally don't understand why it's a big deal who's on top. I think my favourite character is sexy fun topping and he's sexy fun bottoming. But apparently that's just me.
I'm actually tempted create special circumstances if I suspect the requester wants a more submissive version of a character than the way I see them. Is it better not to answer the request? I'm not sure. Also I think I've made a few wrong calls in the past anyway. So maybe it's just better to write the request the way I'd write it and not try to interpret other hints. It's all a bit confusing to me.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 06:14:35 UTC
I personally don't understand why it's a big deal who's on top. I think my favourite character is sexy fun topping and he's sexy fun bottoming. But apparently that's just me.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 06:58:20 UTC
Some people also like to see Sanji, Luffy or Usopp get fucked. YMMV but the size/manliness comparison doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it.
Of course they do, and so do I most of the time. I never said it's all about size all the time. But for some people it really is impossible to imagine Zoro on the bottom, something I've noticed during actual conversations with people, and they claim that it's because he's big and muscular and manly. And because "Sanji is so pretty that he's practically begging to have his ass stuffed, lol!"
I personally don't understand why it's a big deal who's on top. I think my favourite character is sexy fun topping and he's sexy fun bottoming. But apparently that's just me.
You never feel in the mood for a certain thing in porn? You never get in the mood to read about Sanji/Luffy/Usopp/whoever face down with his lover draped over his back and loving it (or something) and just feel that "Wow, this would really press my buttons in a nice way right now!" and him topping just wouldn't have the same effect? Because I do, and since there's such huge amounts of top-Zoro out there, bottom-Zoro feels more exciting to me now. I don't see what's so wrong with enjoying something more a certain way when it comes to porn. It doesn't make any me less of a Zoro fan. It's just porn! Or maybe that's just me.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 12:52:53 UTC
Hm, when it's a friendly, consensual pairing, I honestly don't. I don't mind the characters relative positions as long as the characterisation is right (although when you're talking djs its almost never, sadly). I can understand how something being not done often will make the people who do want to see that want to see it more, though. But then there's the issue that when that's talked about often it starts to become less rare in everyone's mind, and the claim that it's rare starts to feel old.
What I do like and often feel in the mood for is noncon or dubcon. Maybe it's because noncon is my hard kink that when it's friendly porn I don't mind the order, because when I want my favourites bottomed or dominated I want to see it liek serious, and not by their lovers? No idea. I like tons of kinks anyway. Or I'm okay with the kinks and it's more about the characterisation. Something like that.
Of course they do, and so do I most of the time. I never said it's all about size all the time.
No but the discussions tend to leave the impression that that's how some fans are being categorised, as unimaginative and wedded to cliche. A few fans of the more 'usual' pairing orders have mentioned feeling alienated because of all this talk over the course of the last 6 months or so. The ZoLu people seem to have disappeared as the bottom Zoro discussion increased and that saddens me. I hate the thought that this sort of talk drives people off and makes them feel like there's no room for EVERY interpretation on this meme.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 13:28:33 UTC
So I should never mention that I like LuZo or SanZo because it makes the fans of the "traditional" pairing orders sad? Is that what you're saying? Or that I shouldn't request or write LuZo, even though that's what I like because it makes people believe that they can't like what they like?
I tried to explain to the OP of this discussion thread why I have added the sex pollen element to one of my bottom Zoro requests. It's not like I'm going around flaming ZoLu fans and telling them that they're doing it wrong, or that it's not right to like Zoro on top. I'd like to think that my interpretation of the characters is just as welcome on this meme as anyone else's, but from the sound of things it's not since I appear to be driving the ZoLu fans away with it. It's not like the ZoLu fans have the majority of the pairing's fanbase against them or anything, so I honestly don't see why some people liking LuZo should scare them off.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 13:46:46 UTC
No? I'm just trying to be inclusive. Some people think the meme is hostile to ZoLu/top-Zoro. I never actually assumed you were responsible for every discussion there's ever been on that...
And you are kind of telling them that they have no imagination and are stuck in seme/uke cliches.
Because they're popular, we shouldn't encourage their participation? *waggles eyebrows*
Seriously, not trying to start an argument, just to be inclusive and emphasize that people shouldn't assume hostility. Because there's room for everyone. The ZoLu folks disappeared, I'm pretty sure that's fact because I haven't seen a request or fill for them specifically in ages (couple of threesomes).
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 14:15:34 UTC
Just to make this clear, this isn't relevant to what you like, request, or write in any way, I'm referring only to the occasional comments that come out of the discussions alone. I'm sorry it seems to have angered you so much, and it's caught me by surprise that it has, so maybe I didn't think things through before I spoke, or didn't express myself clearly, or I'm missing something. Didn't mean to start ructions.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 16:32:40 UTC
I tried to explain to the OP of this discussion thread why I have added the sex pollen element to one of my bottom Zoro requests.
(OP) Which I find quite reasonable and I don't think that was any of the requests I found puzzling in the first place. I have nought against sex pollen.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 13:40:50 UTC
And is it really more okay for a ZoLu only fan to comment on a LuZo fic with "I only like Zoro on top, but this was still pretty well written"? I see this everywhere. Of course I react to that and feel like I have to excuse myself for liking bottom Zoro. If it's okay for those people to leave comments like that, but it's not okay for me to mention in a discussion that I've come across it, then I suppose I should just shut up about it.
And now I'm getting too pissed off, so I'm taking a break from this discussion.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 13:55:17 UTC
No, it's annoying when people do that. But pointing out distaste for regular ZoLu or ZoSan or its shippers everytime there's a bottom!Zoro discussion is kind of in the same category, and tit for tat doesn't exactly disperse those hostilities.
I don't want an argument, that's the opposite of what I want. I'd like people to come back and enjoy the meme and not feel like there's all these grudges drawn along the lines of which way around we like our pairs because after all we all love the characters and the show.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 14:17:28 UTC
But it's obviously not okay for people to like certain characters in certain positions, or there wouldn't be any bottom-Zoro discussions to begin with. If people could just stop starting top/bottom discussions, the ZoLu fans would just be able to ignore LuZo requests and say no if someone asks if LuZo would work for their request.
Oh, and btw: Luffyko = bottom Luffy without a dick. I doubt the fans have left.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 14:25:34 UTC
Because, women are... always the submissive partner? Luffyko vaginal penetration is the same kink and will appeal to the same people as Luffy bottom anal...? *blink*
I find that statement that Luffyko and ZoLu have some kind of correlation confusing. There hasn't even been a request for top!Zoro/bottom!Luffyko, most of the requests for her are gen or yuri or multi-pair.
I think stopping top/bottom discussions would probably solve the problem. Yes.
Re: Assumptions
anonymous
April 20 2009, 15:16:07 UTC
I never meant to point out distaste for regular ZoLu or ZoSan or its shippers, because I feel no distaste. If anything, I was trying to express my frustration over people basically telling me that my kink is wrong just because they can't see Zoro bottoming for anyone. The most I've mentioned about my likes and dislikes in the other top/bottom discussions is that I prefer Sanji on top because of the way I interpret his character, that I like Luffy on top because I think he's darn fun to write and read on top, and that bottom Zoro makes me hot. And, as I've already mentioned, I told the OP about my experiences with fen who say they can't imagine Zoro on the bottom to explain my reasoning behind making a request with an excuse (sex pollen) to make Zoro bottom for someone. I didn't mention it to in any way imply that bottom Luffy is wrong or that all ZoLu fans should leave the meme to make way for LuZo.
And honestly, by questioning why I prefer my pairings a certain way instead of liking both LuZo and ZoLu equally, you made me feel like I'm an inferior fan to those who do. My preferences are not your preferences, and please don't question me when I say what I like.
Let me explain: this applies to other bits of characterisation too, but chiefly I'm thinking of requests for yaoi pairings with stated top/bottom preferences, when the OP seems to think the preferred position is actually wildly implausible for the character, needing special circumstances to happen.
Which is quite fine with me if the OP genuinely thinks so, but... it's just that I don't always get whether the response must share those assumptions as well, tailoring the fic for it - or if it's also okay with a response from a writer who happens to think that position is eminently plausible for the character/pairing in question, thus feels no need to write in those special circumstances?
Honestly, either way is okay, it's just that it's not always clear to me what the OP wants. So, a little more clarity for those types of requests would be much appreciated.
Reply
However, I've experienced that the majority of fandom don't see things that way. Many people simply expect Zoro to top because he's a big manly man. Comments are dropped everywhere about how people can't see Zoro as anything but a top, and some people are even confused when they see Luffy/Zoro, Sanji/Zoro or Usopp/Zoro in fic or art, because "it's supposed to be the other way around". The thought that a big, muscular man could be turned on by the thought of having his more slender lover fuck him is, apparently, completely foreign to them.
This can become a problem for someone who wants to read about Zoro getting fucked. So I have requested Zoro affected by sex pollen or something to help people wrap their heads around the thought and make my chances of getting to read about bottom-Zoro a bit higher. I would be fine both with a Zoro who goes "SOMEBODY FUCK ME! NOW!" and one who goes "Noooo! Why the hell do I want people to fuck me?"
Uhm... I ramble, and now I'm not sure if I understood the question to begin with. But I guess you could always ask the OP (and hope that they see it) if it would be okay to write the character the way you see him. Or what exactly do you mean when you say "clarity"? I'm guessing a response to a request asking for sex pollen is expected to actually feature sex pollen. Would you feel comfortable providing us with an example of a request that puzzled you?
Reply
However, I've experienced that the majority of fandom don't see things that way.
So I have requested Zoro affected by sex pollen or something to help people wrap their heads around the thought and make my chances of getting to read about bottom-Zoro a bit higher.
(nods) That's kinda the vibe I've thought I've gotten from at least some of those requests
(and yeah, I'm thinking of things like bottom-Zoro, but also top-Usopp, etc), but sometimes it's hard to tell.
At the same time, I agree that if you ask for sex pollen, sex pollen is what you should get. That's cool with me. But requests aren't always quite that specific.
...sorry, I don't have a specific example in mind right now. This is just something I've seen here and there on these threads that sometimes niggles at me.
And yes, of course I could always ask the OP. But to be honest *embarrassed look*, this isn't just to determine whether I'd personally write something or not (I'm actually really bad at explicit smut, so I'd only answer the ones where the OP is fine with more implied, suggestive stuff), but also if I think it's worth checking out what someone else might have written to fill the prompt.
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I personally don't understand why it's a big deal who's on top. I think my favourite character is sexy fun topping and he's sexy fun bottoming. But apparently that's just me.
I'm actually tempted create special circumstances if I suspect the requester wants a more submissive version of a character than the way I see them. Is it better not to answer the request? I'm not sure. Also I think I've made a few wrong calls in the past anyway. So maybe it's just better to write the request the way I'd write it and not try to interpret other hints. It's all a bit confusing to me.
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(OP) No, I feel the same way.
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Of course they do, and so do I most of the time. I never said it's all about size all the time. But for some people it really is impossible to imagine Zoro on the bottom, something I've noticed during actual conversations with people, and they claim that it's because he's big and muscular and manly. And because "Sanji is so pretty that he's practically begging to have his ass stuffed, lol!"
I personally don't understand why it's a big deal who's on top. I think my favourite character is sexy fun topping and he's sexy fun bottoming. But apparently that's just me.
You never feel in the mood for a certain thing in porn? You never get in the mood to read about Sanji/Luffy/Usopp/whoever face down with his lover draped over his back and loving it (or something) and just feel that "Wow, this would really press my buttons in a nice way right now!" and him topping just wouldn't have the same effect? Because I do, and since there's such huge amounts of top-Zoro out there, bottom-Zoro feels more exciting to me now. I don't see what's so wrong with enjoying something more a certain way when it comes to porn. It doesn't make any me less of a Zoro fan. It's just porn! Or maybe that's just me.
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What I do like and often feel in the mood for is noncon or dubcon. Maybe it's because noncon is my hard kink that when it's friendly porn I don't mind the order, because when I want my favourites bottomed or dominated I want to see it liek serious, and not by their lovers? No idea. I like tons of kinks anyway. Or I'm okay with the kinks and it's more about the characterisation. Something like that.
Of course they do, and so do I most of the time. I never said it's all about size all the time.
No but the discussions tend to leave the impression that that's how some fans are being categorised, as unimaginative and wedded to cliche. A few fans of the more 'usual' pairing orders have mentioned feeling alienated because of all this talk over the course of the last 6 months or so. The ZoLu people seem to have disappeared as the bottom Zoro discussion increased and that saddens me. I hate the thought that this sort of talk drives people off and makes them feel like there's no room for EVERY interpretation on this meme.
Reply
I tried to explain to the OP of this discussion thread why I have added the sex pollen element to one of my bottom Zoro requests. It's not like I'm going around flaming ZoLu fans and telling them that they're doing it wrong, or that it's not right to like Zoro on top. I'd like to think that my interpretation of the characters is just as welcome on this meme as anyone else's, but from the sound of things it's not since I appear to be driving the ZoLu fans away with it. It's not like the ZoLu fans have the majority of the pairing's fanbase against them or anything, so I honestly don't see why some people liking LuZo should scare them off.
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And you are kind of telling them that they have no imagination and are stuck in seme/uke cliches.
Because they're popular, we shouldn't encourage their participation? *waggles eyebrows*
Seriously, not trying to start an argument, just to be inclusive and emphasize that people shouldn't assume hostility. Because there's room for everyone. The ZoLu folks disappeared, I'm pretty sure that's fact because I haven't seen a request or fill for them specifically in ages (couple of threesomes).
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(OP) Which I find quite reasonable and I don't think that was any of the requests I found puzzling in the first place. I have nought against sex pollen.
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And now I'm getting too pissed off, so I'm taking a break from this discussion.
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I don't want an argument, that's the opposite of what I want. I'd like people to come back and enjoy the meme and not feel like there's all these grudges drawn along the lines of which way around we like our pairs because after all we all love the characters and the show.
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Oh, and btw: Luffyko = bottom Luffy without a dick. I doubt the fans have left.
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I find that statement that Luffyko and ZoLu have some kind of correlation confusing. There hasn't even been a request for top!Zoro/bottom!Luffyko, most of the requests for her are gen or yuri or multi-pair.
I think stopping top/bottom discussions would probably solve the problem. Yes.
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And honestly, by questioning why I prefer my pairings a certain way instead of liking both LuZo and ZoLu equally, you made me feel like I'm an inferior fan to those who do. My preferences are not your preferences, and please don't question me when I say what I like.
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