i'm such a COP geek, I knowparcfermeDecember 13 2011, 14:59:37 UTC
Yes, judging is often subjective and tech callers are still just relying on their eyes and we know how eyewitness testimony in crime is usually worthless...but in the case of the pair spin at least I don't think it's bad judging. The difference between L3 and L4 can be pretty subjective, but the difference between L1 and L4 is so big that it's more likely they did something that automatically made it unable to get above L1. my ultra-boring cop-geeky breakdown:
In the SP (Link to start of spin), they begin with a camel position, then upright, then change direction/foot, then sit position, then upright.
In the FS (Link to start of spin), they do camel, sit, upright, then change direction/foot, sit and botched the ending upright position.
ISU rules: The following requirements are mandatory for Levels 2 - 4 both in Short Program and in Free Skating: a) for Spin Combinations with change of foot all 3 basic positions;
The three basic positions are camel, sit, and upright. The camel and upright positions are clear in both programs, but to me it looks like they may not have gotten credit for the sit position in the SP. ISU defines the sit position as: the upper part of the skating leg at least parallel to the ice.
In the short, they only do try the sit position in the clockwise direction on their right legs, and it's possible the tech panel didn't think Max got low enough to count as the sit position (Tanya is clearly low enough though). His thigh looks like it gets very close to parallel with the ice but maybe just barely not enough depending on the strictness of the tech caller. Because of the aforementioned rule, they automatically can't get above level 1 even though they're technically racking up "levels" in difficult variations, change of edge/directions, etc.
In the long, they do the sit position in both directions; and the first one is counterclockwise on their left legs, which would be their stronger side and so it looks like they are able to get much lower, and thus are able to hit all three positions, regardless of whether they get low enough in the clockwise sit after changing directions.
and looking this closely at spins really shows how lightyears ahead Aliona/Robin are in the spin department anyway.
tl;dr: IMO judges are subjective with GOE and PCS, but I can usually understand why a tech panel called what they did if I look closely enough. I still don't understand death spirals though.
Re: i'm such a COP geek, I knownijinskaDecember 13 2011, 16:29:57 UTC
I did read! I admire your geek knowledge, and I'm glad there is a rational explanation for this! thanks for the detailed analysis! And yes, I don't get the spiral either. A bit worrying, if the supposedly pin-sharp accuracy of CoP (LOL forever) is marred by this kind of massive cock-up. When the winner is decided by 0.18 of a point, it most certainly matters...
Re: i'm such a COP geek, I knowjessiebananaDecember 13 2011, 20:50:57 UTC
Thank you so much, not geeky at all...or geeky in all the right place ;).
Looking at it they don't get very low in their sit position, so it makes a bit more sense. You do think there would be more flexibility in how a team could achieve a level 2 though.
In the SP (Link to start of spin), they begin with a camel position, then upright, then change direction/foot, then sit position, then upright.
In the FS (Link to start of spin), they do camel, sit, upright, then change direction/foot, sit and botched the ending upright position.
ISU rules:
The following requirements are mandatory for Levels 2 - 4 both in Short Program and in Free Skating:
a) for Spin Combinations with change of foot all 3 basic positions;
The three basic positions are camel, sit, and upright. The camel and upright positions are clear in both programs, but to me it looks like they may not have gotten credit for the sit position in the SP.
ISU defines the sit position as: the upper part of the skating leg at least parallel to the ice.
In the short, they only do try the sit position in the clockwise direction on their right legs, and it's possible the tech panel didn't think Max got low enough to count as the sit position (Tanya is clearly low enough though). His thigh looks like it gets very close to parallel with the ice but maybe just barely not enough depending on the strictness of the tech caller. Because of the aforementioned rule, they automatically can't get above level 1 even though they're technically racking up "levels" in difficult variations, change of edge/directions, etc.
In the long, they do the sit position in both directions; and the first one is counterclockwise on their left legs, which would be their stronger side and so it looks like they are able to get much lower, and thus are able to hit all three positions, regardless of whether they get low enough in the clockwise sit after changing directions.
and looking this closely at spins really shows how lightyears ahead Aliona/Robin are in the spin department anyway.
tl;dr: IMO judges are subjective with GOE and PCS, but I can usually understand why a tech panel called what they did if I look closely enough. I still don't understand death spirals though.
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And yes, I don't get the spiral either. A bit worrying, if the supposedly pin-sharp accuracy of CoP (LOL forever) is marred by this kind of massive cock-up. When the winner is decided by 0.18 of a point, it most certainly matters...
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Looking at it they don't get very low in their sit position, so it makes a bit more sense. You do think there would be more flexibility in how a team could achieve a level 2 though.
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