Tbqh, I didn't make it through this whole thing. (TL:dr and all that.) But this part jumped out at me, and I'd like to comment on it.
The leftist sees capitalism as a horror, and believes that so long as money and profit rule the earth, human beings will be made miserable and will destroy themselves. The liberal does not actually believe this. Rather, the liberal believes that while there are problems with capitalism, it can be salvaged if given a few tweaks here and there.
When I read something like this, I find myself wondering several things. First, how widespread is this stance, that capitalism really is a nothing but an unmitigated "horror" that can't possibly be salvaged in any way, shape, or form? That seems very extreme to me, enough so that I can't help but think it must be a minority opinion. And second, for those who do believe this, exactly what do you propose to do about it?
To completely eliminate capitalism seems like a pretty radical goal to me. I can't imagine the logistics of making that happen, even IF a majority of the electorate held tne view that it should, which tbqh, I really can't imagine AT ALL.
Yes, capitalism creates problems that need to be addressed, but I honestly can't get my head around how we could completely get rid of it, even if everyone wanted to, which, lbr, is not going to happen any time in the foreseeable future. How is this doable, without a complete restructuring of not just the economy, but our entire society? I am not being sarcastic or snarky here. I really want to know if and how anyone really believes this is doable.
As Nancy Pelosi said of the present Democratic party: “We’re capitalist.” When Bernie Sanders is asked if he is a capitalist, he answers flatly: “No.” Sanders is a socialist,
Right, and he's not a Democrat, either. We all know he ran for the Dem nomination because the way our sytem works, a third party candidate has no realistc chance of being elected potus. We also know that while he caucuses with the Democrats and is in sympathy with the Democratic Party on many, many issues, he is not and has never claimed to be a Democrat. So does it surprise me that he and Nancy Pelosi have differing views on capitalism.? Lol, no.
And socialism is not capitalism,
No argument there, lol.
and there is no possibility of healing the ideological rift between the two. Liberals believe that the economic and political system is a machine that has broken down and needs fixing. Leftists believe that the machine is not “broken.” Rather, it is working perfectly well; the problem is that it is a death machine designed to chew up human lives. You don’t fix the death machine, you smash it to bits.
I really hope this is not true, that this rift cannot possibly be healed. But if--IF--that's really the case, I think those who want to "smash" everything "to bits" would be better off forming their own party, rather than trying to remake the Democrat party into something it's not. It's like the old saw about trying to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig. And in this case, I'm pretty sure that trying to turn the Democratic Party into the "smash capitalism to bits!" Party would annoy the hell out of a WHOLE lot of pigs, er, Democrats. Present company included. 😀
(Sorry for all the edits. I kept finding typos, things that didn't sound right when I reread them, etc. But I'm done now.)
I'mgoing to add something as a p.s. to my long reply, because I already edited the fuck out of that post, and I don't want to mess with it anymore.
None of what I have said will be news to leftists, most of whom know full well that their disagreements with Democrats go well beyond the merely tactical. But I think it’s worth spelling out clearly, because it’s reasonable to wonder just how deep the division really goes, versus how much of it is unnecessary warring over issues of strategy. And while I am a firm believer that the enemy of my enemy is my temporarily politically useful coalition partner, the answer is that the divide goes very deep indeed.
I agree that this is worth spelling out clearly. If we're going to be able to work together at all, all of us need to know where everybody else stands. And if (God forbid) we really aren't going to be able to work together... well, we need to know that, too, the sooner, the better.
As for how deep the divide really is and whether it really is unfixable, I think a lot depends on how many/what percentage of "Democrats" really are on the far left side of the gap, which is something I don't pretend to know.
No replies? I'm disappointed! I was really curious about how people envision this "smashing capitalism to bits" thing being put into practice. Not that I want to do that myself--like I said, it sounds awfully drastic to me--but I would like to understand it better, including how those who want to do this propose to accomplish it.
Ehh. I finally got around to re-reading this thread and it's hard to subjectively talk about "Capitalism" as it's so ingrained into the US that the whole country would have to collapse first.
But yeah. Unrestrained Capitalism, which is what we've had for as long as I've been alive (thanks Reagan, thanks Clinton, thanks all!) is an unmitigated horror. Capitalism as a concept basically relies on eating its own tail (resources) for as long as you can to make things as efficient as you can and screw the rest. The crash in 2008? Unrestrained Capitalism. Huge oil spill in 2010? Capitalism because god forbid BP fix or even acknowledge a problem that might hurt their cash flow. Our healthcare system and how pharma, hospitals, medical equipment were all made to actually make more money and not make people better? Also Capitalism. Planned obsolescence, subsidizing gas companies because somehow that keeps the price low, lifelong college loans (And believe me - every part of college is designed to squeeze money from students, not provide them with education), credit card debt, lobbying and PACs, forcing people at Wal Mart to make only enough money to where they can ONLY shop at Wal Mart are all facets of Capitalism.
Capitalism isn't going away, and I fully acknowledge that, but it needs some brakes and regulations and then some. And private companies HATE regulations because it cuts into profit margins. You don't have the wealth disparity in Socialist countries you do in Capitalist ones and the whole thing is on really shaky ground because you need a middle class to keep things running... which Capitalism cannot support because you need the cheapest labor imaginable.
FWIW as well, damn near every single poll I've seen and read there are more Millennials that approve of Socialism over Capitalism so that may be what the article refers to. It has to do with the 2008 crash obviously, and a lot of it is also the drying-up job prospects and the student loan debt crisis. And that will be a crisis, sooner or later. Capitalism loves bubbles and unsustainable systems to feed off of more profit. Sooner or later, something's gotta give somewhere. The twist was just that Communism (well, Russian kind, which is dictatorship disguising as an economic system) gave out first.
Tbqh, I didn't make it through this whole thing. (TL:dr and all that.) But this part jumped out at me, and I'd like to comment on it.
The leftist sees capitalism as a horror, and believes that so long as money and profit rule the earth, human beings will be made miserable and will destroy themselves. The liberal does not actually believe this. Rather, the liberal believes that while there are problems with capitalism, it can be salvaged if given a few tweaks here and there.
When I read something like this, I find myself wondering several things. First, how widespread is this stance, that capitalism really is a nothing but an unmitigated "horror" that can't possibly be salvaged in any way, shape, or form? That seems very extreme to me, enough so that I can't help but think it must be a minority opinion. And second, for those who do believe this, exactly what do you propose to do about it?
To completely eliminate capitalism seems like a pretty radical goal to me. I can't imagine the logistics of making that happen, even IF a majority of the electorate held tne view that it should, which tbqh, I really can't imagine AT ALL.
Yes, capitalism creates problems that need to be addressed, but I honestly can't get my head around how we could completely get rid of it, even if everyone wanted to, which, lbr, is not going to happen any time in the foreseeable future. How is this doable, without a complete restructuring of not just the economy, but our entire society? I am not being sarcastic or snarky here. I really want to know if and how anyone really believes this is doable.
As Nancy Pelosi said of the present Democratic party: “We’re capitalist.” When Bernie Sanders is asked if he is a capitalist, he answers flatly: “No.” Sanders is a socialist,
Right, and he's not a Democrat, either. We all know he ran for the Dem nomination because the way our sytem works, a third party candidate has no realistc chance of being elected potus. We also know that while he caucuses with the Democrats and is in sympathy with the Democratic Party on many, many issues, he is not and has never claimed to be a Democrat. So does it surprise me that he and Nancy Pelosi have differing views on capitalism.? Lol, no.
And socialism is not capitalism,
No argument there, lol.
and there is no possibility of healing the ideological rift between the two. Liberals believe that the economic and political system is a machine that has broken down and needs fixing. Leftists believe that the machine is not “broken.” Rather, it is working perfectly well; the problem is that it is a death machine designed to chew up human lives. You don’t fix the death machine, you smash it to bits.
I really hope this is not true, that this rift cannot possibly be healed. But if--IF--that's really the case, I think those who want to "smash" everything "to bits" would be better off forming their own party, rather than trying to remake the Democrat party into something it's not. It's like the old saw about trying to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig. And in this case, I'm pretty sure that trying to turn the Democratic Party into the "smash capitalism to bits!" Party would annoy the hell out of a WHOLE lot of pigs, er, Democrats. Present company included. 😀
(Sorry for all the edits. I kept finding typos, things that didn't sound right when I reread them, etc. But I'm done now.)
Reply
I'mgoing to add something as a p.s. to my long reply, because I already edited the fuck out of that post, and I don't want to mess with it anymore.
None of what I have said will be news to leftists, most of whom know full well that their disagreements with Democrats go well beyond the merely tactical. But I think it’s worth spelling out clearly, because it’s reasonable to wonder just how deep the division really goes, versus how much of it is unnecessary warring over issues of strategy. And while I am a firm believer that the enemy of my enemy is my temporarily politically useful coalition partner, the answer is that the divide goes very deep indeed.
I agree that this is worth spelling out clearly. If we're going to be able to work together at all, all of us need to know where everybody else stands. And if (God forbid) we really aren't going to be able to work together... well, we need to know that, too, the sooner, the better.
As for how deep the divide really is and whether it really is unfixable, I think a lot depends on how many/what percentage of "Democrats" really are on the far left side of the gap, which is something I don't pretend to know.
Reply
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But yeah. Unrestrained Capitalism, which is what we've had for as long as I've been alive (thanks Reagan, thanks Clinton, thanks all!) is an unmitigated horror. Capitalism as a concept basically relies on eating its own tail (resources) for as long as you can to make things as efficient as you can and screw the rest. The crash in 2008? Unrestrained Capitalism. Huge oil spill in 2010? Capitalism because god forbid BP fix or even acknowledge a problem that might hurt their cash flow. Our healthcare system and how pharma, hospitals, medical equipment were all made to actually make more money and not make people better? Also Capitalism. Planned obsolescence, subsidizing gas companies because somehow that keeps the price low, lifelong college loans (And believe me - every part of college is designed to squeeze money from students, not provide them with education), credit card debt, lobbying and PACs, forcing people at Wal Mart to make only enough money to where they can ONLY shop at Wal Mart are all facets of Capitalism.
Capitalism isn't going away, and I fully acknowledge that, but it needs some brakes and regulations and then some. And private companies HATE regulations because it cuts into profit margins. You don't have the wealth disparity in Socialist countries you do in Capitalist ones and the whole thing is on really shaky ground because you need a middle class to keep things running... which Capitalism cannot support because you need the cheapest labor imaginable.
FWIW as well, damn near every single poll I've seen and read there are more Millennials that approve of Socialism over Capitalism so that may be what the article refers to. It has to do with the 2008 crash obviously, and a lot of it is also the drying-up job prospects and the student loan debt crisis. And that will be a crisis, sooner or later. Capitalism loves bubbles and unsustainable systems to feed off of more profit. Sooner or later, something's gotta give somewhere. The twist was just that Communism (well, Russian kind, which is dictatorship disguising as an economic system) gave out first.
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