German student Diren Dede killed in 'castle doctrine' case

[checkerdandy]

The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.Markus Kaarma has been charged with deliberate murder in the Sunday killing of Diren Dede, 17, of Hamburg

Comments

[howlin_wolf_66]

I feel sorry for the kid and his family, but it's not wise to go into somebody's garage on residential property, in the first place...

[ex_leo_sosn]

+1

[oddityangel]

Hardly needs to be said.

[howlin_wolf_66]

As in, I'm wrong for saying it, or because it's obvious? It's not obvious to the kid's father (although he is, quite understandably, blinded by grief... ) and it's not obvious to the many people using this incident to decry U.S gun culture, which - while I think that is a good cause - glosses over the fact that the victim probably didn't have noble intentions to begin with...

Petty crime is not worth getting shot over, but if that is what it turns out to be, then youngsters shouldn't be trespassing in the first place... so maybe this example will teach an impressionable youth somewhere a harsh lesson, and some good can possibly come from the whole sorry incident?

[oddityangel]

Both because it is obvious (yes, even to those of us decrying the United State's twisted love for guns) and it is the wrong time to say it. The issue that needs to be discussed here isn't juvenile delinquency and how trespass is 'unwise,' it's about how some asshole can feel entitled to lay a trap and murder someone because the laws of the land may well favour him.

But who cares that Markus Kaarma is a bigger danger to the public, isn't it nice that a young man's death may be a 'lesson' for someone, right?

[howlin_wolf_66]

Well, then I apologise if anybody felt I was being insensitive - it seemed at the time that people were wilfully ignoring it, rather than tactfully so.

From this example it doesn't appear that he is a danger to anyone other than those who he suspects to be stealing from his property, and if you're doing a good deed, then there are ways to call attention to yourself without being overtly suspicious. The facts and the various motives are for the courts to decide.

If this kid was an innocent bystander who was shot in a case of mistaken identity, then of course it is tragic... If however, he was an opportunistic ne'erdowell, then while the consequences of his transgression may well be excessive, in those circumstances I'd find it hard to muster up much sympathy - and that is something I feel no need to apologise for admitting.

[soleiltropiques]

"If however, he was an opportunistic ne'erdowell, then while the consequences of his transgression may well be excessive, in those circumstances I'd find it hard to muster up much sympathy - and that is something I feel no need to apologise for admitting

[howlin_wolf_66]

Where did I say it was justified?! I said that in that circumstance, I'd have no sympathy... Two different things.

To me, thievery constitutes wrongdoing, as well as shooting somebody... The difficulty here is that we don't know that the young man was attempting to engage in a criminal act... but stealing/shooting = both wrong.

Shooting - whilst always wrong - can be done in anger. A mistake. You don't tend to steal from someone by mistake, it's a choice you make,

[oddityangel]

You're acting as if the level of 'wrongdoing' is comparable, as if trespass and petty theft are in the same ballpark as murdering someone. The fact that you'd express 'no sympathy' for someone who may have had their ENTIRE LIFE snuffed out for, lets be real, a petty crime (if it was even that), is chilling to me. People in your life, I'm sure, have made mistakes and/or poor choices (shoplifting, trespass, vandalism, not wearing their seatbelt or bike helmet, jaywalking, etc...), I wonder if you'd be able to muster any sympathy for them.

And shooting someone =/= stealing. You may not steal from someone by mistake, but most thieves, or at at least the types who wander into open garages, don't destroy lives. Between a petty thief and a guy who turns his garage into a death trap...I know who I'd rather have in the neighborhood.

As you said, you don't need to apologize for your black and white view of the world or your callous lack of regard for human life, but no one has the respect it either.

[howlin_wolf_66]

Not wearing a seatbelt and jaywalking is utterly not comparable to shoplifting, trespass, and vandalism... In all cases, you are making a conscious choice to infringe upon somebody's rights, whilst in the case of jaywalking or not wearing a seatbelt, you could just have been absentminded

[lied_ohne_worte]

Of course this is a feature of gun culture. Those "castle" and "stand your ground" laws (which, by the way, don't exist in many other countries) weren't introduced and lobbied for by the NRA so you could knife someone or hit them over the head with a flower pot.

[howlin_wolf_66]

No, but the exact same situation could have been completely replicated in another country, with a different weapon (or even the same one - see 'Tony Martin case UK'; and we don't even have the same gun culture the U.S. has).

[oddityangel]

I guess we're at an impasse, since I think walking into someone's garage is utterly not the same as shooting someone to death, but you seem to insist that we should be focusing on former as much as the latter, as if they are somehow equivalent.

And this case is easily says more about gun culture and castle doctrine than it does about minor delinquency.

[howlin_wolf_66]

Maybe we shouldn't be focusing on it AS MUCH, but we definitely should be taking it into account... which no-one else seems to have mentioned, except me.

[oddityangel]

Because it hardly needed to be said.

[howlin_wolf_66]

I think it does need to be mentioned if people seem to regard it as utterly inconsequential.

... but, you are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. That is what communities like this are about, after all.