Ukraine: The Haze of Propoganda

[evilnel]

From Moscow to London to New York, the Ukrainian revolution has been seen through a haze of propaganda. Russian leaders and the Russian press have insisted that Ukrainian protesters were right-wing extremists and then that their victory was a coup. Ukraine’s president, Viktor Yanukovych, used the same clichés after a visit with the Russian

Comments

[mingemonster]

Those fascists in the government are just a myth, then? But hey. As long as its not the president! Because, as we all know, in a democracy the head of state holds all the power.

This article seems to be working from the conclusion that being "popular" and being fascist are mutually exclusive. They're not. It can be a popular movement and still be a terrible development.

[evilnel]

I think you missed the point of the article. It was not saying that a popular movement can't be fascist. That's obviously not true (hello WWII Italy/Germany/etc). It was saying that the propaganda Putin is putting out is saying that this is a right wing neo-nazi takeover incited by the west which is anti-semetic and against those who are ethnically Russian/native Russian speakers. The article is saying this is patently and verifiably untrue. The leaders of the opposition are a diverse group of Ukrainians that consists of people of Arab decent, Poles, Russians, Jews, etc and while they are supporters of the west and democracy, this was a movement that came organically from the people. In fact, one of the governors who was recently appointed in the east to help keep order is a well known oligarch who is also Jewish. Rabbis have denounced this claim of persecution as well as many ethnic Russians. If you had actually read the article, you would have known that, unless you are also a propaganda mongerer, in which case, well done. Putin

[mingemonster]

Obviously not every single protester is a nazi. That's a pretty weak argument. And it doesn't change the fact that these protests have been enormously beneficial for fascism, and it doesn't change the fact that they obviously have enough support to end up in the government.

[evilnel]

The accusation is that these people are anti-Russian nazis but several of them are actually ethnically Russian and there's no evidence they're nazis. Anyway, I'm tired of engaging with propaganda trolls and idiots.

[mingemonster]

lol wow

[synekdokee]

Er. How have the protests been beneficial for facism?

[mingemonster]

There are three representatives for the fascist party in the new government, and the Right Sector have control over events that they never had before. The more violent protests become, the more the outcome depends on who can use force to accomplish their goals, and right now the ultra nationalists are those who can do that.

[evilnel]

[citation needed]

[mingemonster]

I thought you were ~tired of engaging with idiots

[evilnel]

None of these articles prove that the far right is in significant control of the current government, which is headed by Oleksandr Turchynov, who was already the parliament speaker and my understanding is that most others in power are experienced politicians. You want to tell me who, exactly, these "radical right" people in control are and what their official government appointments are?

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/03/222988.htm

Myths spread by Putin's regime.

http://www.jta.org/2014/03/03/news-opinion/world/ukraine-chief-rabbi-accuses-russians-of-staging-anti-semitic-provocations#.UxdckYH2T1I.facebook

Conversely, it seems the only people who are acting anti-semetic are Russians...

[mingemonster]

No, that's because I wasn't trying to prove that they controlled the government.

And you accused me of not reading...

[evilnel]

You actually did. "There are three representatives for the fascist party in the new government."Read more at ONTD Political: http://ontd-political.livejournal.com/10977123.html#ixzz2vCnNFUtZ... )

[mingemonster]

Oh. I just assumed you didn't need to be told who was in the government. Also, in the government =/= controlling the government.

http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

And I know there are fascists in Sweden, which is why I'm on the street protesting them every chance I get, and have been doing so since I was 14. I certainly don't team up with them just because we're both against the current government. The fact that they exist everywhere is a reason to fight them harder.

And no, the Right Sector was created because of the protests in late 2013. Fascists existed before that, but like the articles I linked you to show, their influence has grown massively because of this.

[evilnel]

This is bogus and overblown, and even if it were 100% accurate and contextual (which it's not) there is still no reason for Russia to invade Crimea and eastern Ukraine. Just because a Tea Party rep gets voted into office in Texas doesn't give Mexico the right to invade even if there are Spanish speakers there. There's a reason nations have sovereignty. You don't get sovereignty until Russia decides, and then they get to invade if you elect somebody they don't like (and by that I mean somebody who won't be purchased by Putin). It's an international violation, and Russia is great at creating false reasons for going in. They have even been trying to stir up violence in order to provoke retaliation from Ukrainian civilians and military alike so that they can have "proof" of the situation's instability. Face it, Putin is using this as an excuse to continue his expansionist policies, same thing he did to Georgia in 2008. You are gullible if you buy the propaganda, but the real travesty is if you really think Russia is justified in taking

[mingemonster]

Where are you getting the idea that I'm a fan of Putin and everything he does?

[evilnel]

Your statements have sounded at the very least not supportive of Ukraine's right for autonomy. Are you saying otherwise?