While I have seen the occasional case of "blast first, ask questions later" when it comes to confrontations, I just don't buy this idea that women of colour are going around in these scary bullying gangs when the majority of times when I read the actual confrontation between a white feminist and women of colour (who may or may not refer to herself as feminist) it read just about the same way any heated disagreement between two female-identifying people talking about feminism tend to go, but in the retelling to others later on the white feminist almost always takes on this huge martyred tone about how they were bullied without any owning of what is usually racist remarks or slurs they themselves used that provoked the angry reaction in the first place, etc. Sometimes they seem genuinely unaware of the racist overtones, which is a huge failing on our part!
A better version of this article would be "white feminists usually don't know how to react or check themselves in feminist (or other) discussions with women of colour" and add to that the huge red flag of how Jezebel is mentioned oh so innocently when it's come to light in the past few years their own problematic history of outright stealing article ideas from women of colour activists or posting a lot of articles that are problematic and generally read like their editors are new to feminism or any sort of civil rights movement, just today someone posted in a fb group I'm in a link to a jez article about vaginas that was had all these glaring racist and transphobic remarks casually sprinkled in and yet it was still posted! Not to mention their never-really-apologized-for support and apologism of racist misogynistic predatory rapist assholes like Hugo Schwyzer. I know it's gotten to the point where many feminists have concluded Jezebel is in the feminism game mostly for the pagehits and ad revenue and we gotta stop giving them what they want.
This whole article has an ickle-sweet "oh the plight of the poor white feminists! They can barely take an online step without quivering in fear!" that I don't think is particularly productive. At no point does this article give a clear example of one of these "toxic" responses, it's all very vaguely mentioned. I'm not saying that genuinely mean or uncalled for or flat out inappropriate things haven't been said or done to possibly any or all of the people interviewed but it's genuinely hard to tell what we should count as such, there is not a lot of concrete things to get a grasp on, and if I find that frustrating I can only imagine how people who are not white women like me must be feeling reading this article! Among other reasons to be less than thrilled with it.
And what are they suggesting is the solution to this "problem"? Women of colour stop posting when they are angry? What about instead there be some mention of cognitive dissonance and privilege unpacking and what can we do to create productive frameworks that can allow very necessary conversations between these two groups (at least two groups, mind you) to happen? All the weight is on the non-white women to make things better? There aren't white feminists doing just as much of the blasting that is actually out there? Come on!
Oh my, thank you. I'm glad black women such as yourself are still posting even after all the frustrating conversations you must have on these topics, I only know what I've personally seen and that would be bad enough. I've learned a lot reading your posts, I appreciate you taking the time to do so.
Honestly, thank you for reading them at all. I feel like I'm constantly saying the same thing over and over again, and that people are either too simple or too obstinate to actually listen to what I'm saying.
You always seem to have the energy to say what we're all thinking but don't have the energy to rehash for the millionth time, and it's seriously wonderful that you have the wherewithal to keep doing it in the face of shit like the comments above.
I feel like I'm constantly saying the same thing over and over again, and that people are either too simple or too obstinate to actually listen to what I'm saying.
That's actually the most frustrating thing. The sheer number of times you have to keep saying the same thing and getting the same response each time.
If I may say, you are another person whose comments I try to find and read all of them in these discussions, thank you for all your posts and your efforts.
Wow thank you. I'm glad you feel it helps! I try to help with the heavy lifting without overstepping, please feel free to let me know if I do overstep or mistep at any time. That goes for anyone, really.
+1 to what sunhawk has been saying - I'm often too tired/out of spoons to really comment effectively these days and honestly I get so fucking stressed out or anxious with confronting bullshit I just end up walking away or defriending people (in various social media formats); but I really appreciate what you and the stalwart commenters here have to say and it helps me to formulate my arguments elsewhere a little more cogently on the few occasions I feel able to.
Your posts are always worth reading. I don't mind wordy. I'm coming in late but I also wanted to thank you as well for the time you spend here. ISTR you've had some health issues, which I can sympathise with as I'm multiply disabled (it's part of why I lurk on sensitive issues I don't have direct experience with, that and cognitive damage from a former med -- I'd rather err on the side of keeping hush than potentially hurt someone by poor phrasing), and I appreciate even more that you take the time to explain when you're dealing with that kind of stuff. I sure don't always have spoons for people being shitty about queer or disability issues. Thank you. :)
I try to read all your comments if I see you participating, among other posters here on ontd_p who are POC or LGBTQ and so forth, and I think that's what is lost or in the case of this article ignored, that feeling of frustration from having these discussions not for the tenth time but hundredth or thousandth time and feeling like you are spinning your wheels without getting anywhere. I think it's very disingenous for people to refer to that frustration coming out as "toxic" and make little effort to separate it from, say, abrasive trolling or just plain vicious posting.
LOL hey I have more energy because I'm white, able-bodied, straight, cisgendered lady, I'm nearly at the top of the hegemonic foodchain. Energy is not a problem usually, getting things right and privileging-checking myself is more the issue. I appreciate your feedback on my posting, it's very helpful to know I have moments where I am on the right track and that it actually helps. I will do my best to keep being helpful!
(also I have a weird thing where sometimes when I get angry it sometimes makes me post super politely, useful side effect of being Canadian idk? lol)
And yet people wonder one would stop answering in a sweet tone and seem a bit irritated. Whatever could be the cause?
People that pull the "tone police" bullshit obviously haven't been in a place of having to explain the same subject - one that cannot possibly be discussed in a detached, purely academic way - time and time again. It's your job to be nice and spare their delicate fee-fees, don'cha know.
YES. And the tone policing argument was originally meant to attack how, no matter how sweetly and patiently a marginalized person delivers an opinion, someone who doesn't want to hear what they're saying will ALWAYS say that they're being too harsh and that their ~tone~ is getting in the way of being listened to. ALWAYS.
When people are actually being harsh- throwing slurs and insults and shit-, they deserve to have their tone policed. This isn't to say that it's wrong to be angry at all, but it's a whole different monster than people being called such because the person they're speaking to is too privileged to listen to what's actually being said.
I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I read what you and others write. I try to keep my fingers off the keyboard at such times because I've learned I narrow my focus to a few points and stop hearing the entirety of what you have to say if I try to participate in the discussion. Even if I'm silent, I'm paying attention to you, what you say is percolating through my brain, and it's changing the way I see the world around me.
I'm just getting to read this now, but I also wanted to say thank you for your comments here. I've learned a lot from the things you've said, even if I don't always comment (I have permanent cognitive dysfunction from a former medication + autism, so on sensitive issues that I do not have personal experience in, I try to err on the side of keeping quiet vs. potentially hurting someone by a poor choice of words.) I think you've been one of the people who have talked at times about leaving because of the attitude -- and tbh, given some of the shit you've gotten, I sure wouldn't blame you -- but I just figured I'd speak up too and let you know your words have helped educate someone else. :)
This was well said. I am so exhausted right now that pretty much all I could come up with was "No. Please just shut up!" But what you said is a lot better.
A better version of this article would be "white feminists usually don't know how to react or check themselves in feminist (or other) discussions with women of colour" and add to that the huge red flag of how Jezebel is mentioned oh so innocently when it's come to light in the past few years their own problematic history of outright stealing article ideas from women of colour activists or posting a lot of articles that are problematic and generally read like their editors are new to feminism or any sort of civil rights movement, just today someone posted in a fb group I'm in a link to a jez article about vaginas that was had all these glaring racist and transphobic remarks casually sprinkled in and yet it was still posted! Not to mention their never-really-apologized-for support and apologism of racist misogynistic predatory rapist assholes like Hugo Schwyzer. I know it's gotten to the point where many feminists have concluded Jezebel is in the feminism game mostly for the pagehits and ad revenue and we gotta stop giving them what they want.
This whole article has an ickle-sweet "oh the plight of the poor white feminists! They can barely take an online step without quivering in fear!" that I don't think is particularly productive. At no point does this article give a clear example of one of these "toxic" responses, it's all very vaguely mentioned. I'm not saying that genuinely mean or uncalled for or flat out inappropriate things haven't been said or done to possibly any or all of the people interviewed but it's genuinely hard to tell what we should count as such, there is not a lot of concrete things to get a grasp on, and if I find that frustrating I can only imagine how people who are not white women like me must be feeling reading this article! Among other reasons to be less than thrilled with it.
And what are they suggesting is the solution to this "problem"? Women of colour stop posting when they are angry? What about instead there be some mention of cognitive dissonance and privilege unpacking and what can we do to create productive frameworks that can allow very necessary conversations between these two groups (at least two groups, mind you) to happen? All the weight is on the non-white women to make things better? There aren't white feminists doing just as much of the blasting that is actually out there? Come on!
Reply
Reply
Reply
You always seem to have the energy to say what we're all thinking but don't have the energy to rehash for the millionth time, and it's seriously wonderful that you have the wherewithal to keep doing it in the face of shit like the comments above.
Reply
That's actually the most frustrating thing. The sheer number of times you have to keep saying the same thing and getting the same response each time.
Reply
Reply
I'm far too wordy tbh, but I figure that's the INTP in me.
I always enjoy your comments. They are always nice, informative and often do a lot of heavy lifting, which is very appreciated from me at least.
Reply
Wow thank you. I'm glad you feel it helps! I try to help with the heavy lifting without overstepping, please feel free to let me know if I do overstep or mistep at any time. That goes for anyone, really.
Reply
Reply
Reply
LOL hey I have more energy because I'm white, able-bodied, straight, cisgendered lady, I'm nearly at the top of the hegemonic foodchain. Energy is not a problem usually, getting things right and privileging-checking myself is more the issue. I appreciate your feedback on my posting, it's very helpful to know I have moments where I am on the right track and that it actually helps. I will do my best to keep being helpful!
(also I have a weird thing where sometimes when I get angry it sometimes makes me post super politely, useful side effect of being Canadian idk? lol)
Reply
People that pull the "tone police" bullshit obviously haven't been in a place of having to explain the same subject - one that cannot possibly be discussed in a detached, purely academic way - time and time again. It's your job to be nice and spare their delicate fee-fees, don'cha know.
Reply
When people are actually being harsh- throwing slurs and insults and shit-, they deserve to have their tone policed. This isn't to say that it's wrong to be angry at all, but it's a whole different monster than people being called such because the person they're speaking to is too privileged to listen to what's actually being said.
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment