IMO the radicalization of the online feminist/SJ presence is not something positive.
Totally agree, it's a much needed discussion. We're isolating people, stifling discussion and promoting group think and mob justice, and I think it's a frightening paradigm shift. Just the facts that the comments on this already are of the snarky type where people just say "lol oh gawd" and stuff proves exactly how badly such a discussion is needed. Such responses and attitudes are just not constructive towards engaging people in real-life social justice or critical dialogue. I've been sticking with real life activism at this point because I find that speaking with other people in real life and sort of re-learning how to respectfully disagree, introspect, and look for common ground is much more productive, will more likely affect other people and change other people's minds (or have your own mind changed), and is overall more informative than just group-think bashing and group-think agreement. In short, this article is totally needed. I don't think we should need to fear the types of comments that will be here, I think we should welcome that the answers won't all be unanimous and use this as an opportunity.
kleios_kiss (kleios_kiss) replied to a comment left by The Notorious Blue Fairy ::ON VACATION:: (girly123)
So here's the short of it: I work with a lot of people IRL who always side-eyed me for reading these types of websites in the first place, and no, not just white women. These sites have become very self-selective and only allow in people who have the same views, regardless of race or gender. I work with/am friends with several people who used to work with the National Urban League of a much older generation who ask me outright why I would do something that allows for so little actual discussion. My boyfriend who's half black likewise puts down these types of sites for what he calls their "policing" and for not focusing on finding constructive solutions to issues - for him, his biggest issue is promoting racial equality and gender equality in the sciences an advancement in academia, but he's outright disdainful of online groups such as these - for example, he says what's needed is discussions on how to make systemic changes and evaluations of what's been done so far for systemic issues, looking at multiple options and allowing for healthy criticism, since he says that's what drives innovation and progress. The people who I work with in legal services for low-income women's justice likewise put down these sites for not recognizing that not everybody is up on all the academia and research and history and that these sites are actually quite classist and tend to isolate people based on that. Also, not everybody always agrees with each other or knows the same amount about different subjects, and I'm speaking intra-racially, intra-religiously and intra-genderdly (yea I just made up a bunch of terms) in addition to inter-everything, but that's not a reason to respond with snark or insults. My boyfriend and I have had our disagreements about the results of certain feminist movements, but the point is, this happens in real life, and then we usually come to agreements, or he acknowledges that he said something insensitive or inaccurate, or I acknowledge that hey, perhaps feminism can take a different approach in certain ways. I mean I'm not opposed to hearing a man's view on issues of feminism because I think it's good to hear things from outside of your own sphere of perception. Sometimes I'll disagree, sometimes I'll learn, sometimes we'll both come to new ideas altogether. But that's because we allow each other to have those discussions and don't just insult each other for it. I think intent is a huge part of this - I have friends who are genuinely intent on achieving gender equality, lowering the wealth gap, etc - but we often have different ideas on how to go about it. Finally, one of my best friends regularly does research and presentations and even publications regarding the inherent racism of NYS drug laws and the history of selective law enforcement (also pharmaceutical law and mental health law). We've worked together in research positions (albeit she has a JD and is an attorney and I'm not, so I've been the unpaid intern) and she says she never reads the comments on sites like this because they're just "infuriating" and would never comment because she thinks it would be professional death. This isn't just about "white women," this is about how the online SJ movements have often become very narrow and a ton of people aren't represented based on age, socioeconomics, and simply different backgrounds and differences of opinion, people who are just waking up to the realities of racism or feminism are shut down and it probably turns them off to the topics, and this type of polarization doesn't too much to create engagement in real life. I used to love these types of sites and think they served a great purpose, and many times they still do, but more often I'm seeing a lot of snark, insults and bullying as opposed to dialogue. I don't agree with everything written in the article above, some of it I vigorously disagree with, but I do think it opens up issues that we do need to address if we are serious about creating national or international change with regards to affecting social justice and equality. Also my "enter" button stopped working so this is all going to be one long thing instead of tiny paragraphs.
OK I think the first thought I have, since you are essentially responding to my comment, is that any sort of productive discussion on this issue absolutely NEEDS actual examples of "these sites" or examples of people being "shut down" or otherwise silenced as you are implying. This is a messy subjective area due to the privileges involved and how they intersect, and in the specific case of white women being called out by women of colour, I have definitely seen white women take remarks like "hey what you are saying is problematic/offensive/fucked up" and fire back with "you are trying to silence/bully me!" and in some cases it's because they genuinely have not a lot of experience with serious disagreement and just don't know how to handle or contextualize what is going on, especially a lack of useful education about racism from people of colour, plus they either can't see or won't acknowledge that they did wrong, so they overreact. And I've done it too, don't get me wrong! We need better ways to teach other white women when to recognize when this is happening and improve self-reflection, the simplest solution is better overall civil rights education (not just women's rights, but LGBTQ rights, anti-racism, etc) and actively teach privilege checking and dismantling.
And saying that this isn't just about white women sounds like a deflection, yes other groups are at play here but when it comes to straight cisgendered white women we have the greatest hegemonic power and thus the greatest potential to abuse that power or be invisible to it, etc.
Also you may be able to create a hard return space without using the enter key by copying and pasting an already-existing space on this page.
We need better ways to teach other white women when to recognize when this is happening and improve self-reflection, the simplest solution is better overall civil rights education (not just women's rights, but LGBTQ rights, anti-racism, etc) and actively teach privilege checking and dismantling.
And saying that this isn't just about white women sounds like a deflection, yes other groups are at play here but when it comes to straight cisgendered white women we have the greatest hegemonic power and thus the greatest potential to abuse that power or be invisible to it, etc.
While discussion is important, I don't view online discussion the way I view irl discussion.
One thing, when I'm with a person face to face, I see their body language. That is important as mentioning the race of people automatically assigns characteristic to people whether people realize it or not.
Second, people are literally fingertips away from a wide array of information on the internet. Sometimes on the same exact blog only a tag or post away! That's annoying. And it's even more annoying than repeatedly being asked in person because that information is up for anybody to see at any old time they feel like accessing it not just when they are having a conversation at that moment.
As someone who works in anti-racism for a living, works with low income people (and is low income myself) and has not gone to college, I also get annoyed that people think that all things that are either academic or are presented as academic are also not used by common lay people. Take the definition that sociologists use (at least in the West) as racism = privilege plus power. Yes, it can be argued that this has some roots in academia, but I can absolutely guarantee you that it is language used by anti-racists fighting the battle every single day. Women of Color? The term was created as solidarity by women of color themselves. Though most would assume it's academia inspired. Sometimes, things can get a little too word specific, but I find that people on the ground don't get enough credit for influencing or creating a lot of the language used in movements. People make assumptions that some professor in some class came up with all the theories and then force fed them to the masses in order to make everything confusing and PC and that's simply not true a lot of times.
I will say that sometimes things are classist, but if one is constantly engaging and interacting with online forums then one has access to most of the same information as the people they are engaging with.
I'm also going to be honest in that when it comes to marginalization, there should absolutely be places for discussion, but they shouldn't be everywhere. There is no right in homophobia or racism or sexism. And people who are impacted by these things should not have to have discussions about these things every single place they go, including online. And so often, especially on Tumblr, I see people having interpersonal conversations and someone just butts all in. Take the "Black girls are beautiful posts". There is always at least one person who crosses out Black and says "ALL". That post, despite the open nature of Tumblr, was not there for that purpose. People forget sometimes that even in social media not every discussion is theirs to have. People have forgotten the art of listening. Intra personal conversations happen all the time and because of the internet you get to listen in on them. You can literally see people agreeing, disagreeing and teaching and discussing things, but if you insist on butting in you miss that a lot of times.
There are spaces to engage openly with people. They exist, but one must not assume they are every place.
Can I say, as someone who usually spends copious amounts of time explaining and posting articles and links, that I get the same reaction to explaining to people as gently as I can as people do who scroll by and say "Fuck you!" It's happened multiple times even on this website. So why should anyone explain nicely? Online at least, guiding someone through the steps just means strenuous work for the guide. Who really has the time and effort to continuously do this? Especially for strangers?
What I will say is that I've grown a little bit away from the call out nature. Sometimes now, for me personally, it gets a little too harsh, but I don't expect everyone to feel my way and frankly sometimes people are getting out their anger and frustration out in a way that is new and healthier for them.
Totally agree, it's a much needed discussion. We're isolating people, stifling discussion and promoting group think and mob justice, and I think it's a frightening paradigm shift. Just the facts that the comments on this already are of the snarky type where people just say "lol oh gawd" and stuff proves exactly how badly such a discussion is needed. Such responses and attitudes are just not constructive towards engaging people in real-life social justice or critical dialogue. I've been sticking with real life activism at this point because I find that speaking with other people in real life and sort of re-learning how to respectfully disagree, introspect, and look for common ground is much more productive, will more likely affect other people and change other people's minds (or have your own mind changed), and is overall more informative than just group-think bashing and group-think agreement. In short, this article is totally needed. I don't think we should need to fear the types of comments that will be here, I think we should welcome that the answers won't all be unanimous and use this as an opportunity.
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I honestly don't have the energy to engage with this mindset yet again. Just no.
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Isn't deleting one's comments a ban-able offense in this comm? Just wondering...
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So here's the short of it: I work with a lot of people IRL who always side-eyed me for reading these types of websites in the first place, and no, not just white women. These sites have become very self-selective and only allow in people who have the same views, regardless of race or gender. I work with/am friends with several people who used to work with the National Urban League of a much older generation who ask me outright why I would do something that allows for so little actual discussion. My boyfriend who's half black likewise puts down these types of sites for what he calls their "policing" and for not focusing on finding constructive solutions to issues - for him, his biggest issue is promoting racial equality and gender equality in the sciences an advancement in academia, but he's outright disdainful of online groups such as these - for example, he says what's needed is discussions on how to make systemic changes and evaluations of what's been done so far for systemic issues, looking at multiple options and allowing for healthy criticism, since he says that's what drives innovation and progress. The people who I work with in legal services for low-income women's justice likewise put down these sites for not recognizing that not everybody is up on all the academia and research and history and that these sites are actually quite classist and tend to isolate people based on that. Also, not everybody always agrees with each other or knows the same amount about different subjects, and I'm speaking intra-racially, intra-religiously and intra-genderdly (yea I just made up a bunch of terms) in addition to inter-everything, but that's not a reason to respond with snark or insults. My boyfriend and I have had our disagreements about the results of certain feminist movements, but the point is, this happens in real life, and then we usually come to agreements, or he acknowledges that he said something insensitive or inaccurate, or I acknowledge that hey, perhaps feminism can take a different approach in certain ways. I mean I'm not opposed to hearing a man's view on issues of feminism because I think it's good to hear things from outside of your own sphere of perception. Sometimes I'll disagree, sometimes I'll learn, sometimes we'll both come to new ideas altogether. But that's because we allow each other to have those discussions and don't just insult each other for it. I think intent is a huge part of this - I have friends who are genuinely intent on achieving gender equality, lowering the wealth gap, etc - but we often have different ideas on how to go about it. Finally, one of my best friends regularly does research and presentations and even publications regarding the inherent racism of NYS drug laws and the history of selective law enforcement (also pharmaceutical law and mental health law). We've worked together in research positions (albeit she has a JD and is an attorney and I'm not, so I've been the unpaid intern) and she says she never reads the comments on sites like this because they're just "infuriating" and would never comment because she thinks it would be professional death. This isn't just about "white women," this is about how the online SJ movements have often become very narrow and a ton of people aren't represented based on age, socioeconomics, and simply different backgrounds and differences of opinion, people who are just waking up to the realities of racism or feminism are shut down and it probably turns them off to the topics, and this type of polarization doesn't too much to create engagement in real life. I used to love these types of sites and think they served a great purpose, and many times they still do, but more often I'm seeing a lot of snark, insults and bullying as opposed to dialogue. I don't agree with everything written in the article above, some of it I vigorously disagree with, but I do think it opens up issues that we do need to address if we are serious about creating national or international change with regards to affecting social justice and equality. Also my "enter" button stopped working so this is all going to be one long thing instead of tiny paragraphs.
Reply
And saying that this isn't just about white women sounds like a deflection, yes other groups are at play here but when it comes to straight cisgendered white women we have the greatest hegemonic power and thus the greatest potential to abuse that power or be invisible to it, etc.
Also you may be able to create a hard return space without using the enter key by copying and pasting an already-existing space on this page.
Reply
And saying that this isn't just about white women sounds like a deflection, yes other groups are at play here but when it comes to straight cisgendered white women we have the greatest hegemonic power and thus the greatest potential to abuse that power or be invisible to it, etc.
I could not agree more!
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One thing, when I'm with a person face to face, I see their body language. That is important as mentioning the race of people automatically assigns characteristic to people whether people realize it or not.
Second, people are literally fingertips away from a wide array of information on the internet. Sometimes on the same exact blog only a tag or post away! That's annoying. And it's even more annoying than repeatedly being asked in person because that information is up for anybody to see at any old time they feel like accessing it not just when they are having a conversation at that moment.
As someone who works in anti-racism for a living, works with low income people (and is low income myself) and has not gone to college, I also get annoyed that people think that all things that are either academic or are presented as academic are also not used by common lay people. Take the definition that sociologists use (at least in the West) as racism = privilege plus power. Yes, it can be argued that this has some roots in academia, but I can absolutely guarantee you that it is language used by anti-racists fighting the battle every single day. Women of Color? The term was created as solidarity by women of color themselves. Though most would assume it's academia inspired. Sometimes, things can get a little too word specific, but I find that people on the ground don't get enough credit for influencing or creating a lot of the language used in movements. People make assumptions that some professor in some class came up with all the theories and then force fed them to the masses in order to make everything confusing and PC and that's simply not true a lot of times.
I will say that sometimes things are classist, but if one is constantly engaging and interacting with online forums then one has access to most of the same information as the people they are engaging with.
I'm also going to be honest in that when it comes to marginalization, there should absolutely be places for discussion, but they shouldn't be everywhere. There is no right in homophobia or racism or sexism. And people who are impacted by these things should not have to have discussions about these things every single place they go, including online. And so often, especially on Tumblr, I see people having interpersonal conversations and someone just butts all in. Take the "Black girls are beautiful posts". There is always at least one person who crosses out Black and says "ALL". That post, despite the open nature of Tumblr, was not there for that purpose. People forget sometimes that even in social media not every discussion is theirs to have. People have forgotten the art of listening. Intra personal conversations happen all the time and because of the internet you get to listen in on them. You can literally see people agreeing, disagreeing and teaching and discussing things, but if you insist on butting in you miss that a lot of times.
There are spaces to engage openly with people. They exist, but one must not assume they are every place.
Can I say, as someone who usually spends copious amounts of time explaining and posting articles and links, that I get the same reaction to explaining to people as gently as I can as people do who scroll by and say "Fuck you!" It's happened multiple times even on this website. So why should anyone explain nicely? Online at least, guiding someone through the steps just means strenuous work for the guide. Who really has the time and effort to continuously do this? Especially for strangers?
What I will say is that I've grown a little bit away from the call out nature. Sometimes now, for me personally, it gets a little too harsh, but I don't expect everyone to feel my way and frankly sometimes people are getting out their anger and frustration out in a way that is new and healthier for them.
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