'Out of Hand': Europe Furious Over US Spying Allegations

[lied_ohne_worte]

The newest allegations of US spying have unleashed a torrent of criticism and concern in Europe. If suspicions unearthed by SPIEGEL that the US tapped Chancellor Merkel's cell phone turn out to be true, the ramifications for trans-Atlantic ties could be immense.
Leading politicians and media commentators in Germany expressed serious concern on

Comments

[zinnia_rose]

Not that I necessarily think it's a good idea, but I kind of thought it was a given that the US government has eyes and ears everywhere. It's like Israel's nukes -- everyone knows they have them but nobody will say so.

Maybe I'm just overly cynical.

[lied_ohne_worte]

Well, yes, but some things shouldn't be done. The fact that I can go through my friends' things when I visit them doesn't mean I do it. The newest suspicion I've read in newspaper editorials, which some voices from the EU summit have also hinted at, is that this isn't about preventing terrorism, as the US actually claimed when caught bugging EU buildings (and really, were they thinking EU diplomats were al-Quaida members?), but about economic espionage. And if so, I really can't see how anyone can negotiate international agreements with them.

[alexvdl]

But just because a country is currently our ally doesn't mean it's always going to be. Frankly, Germany is a pretty good example of that.

[lied_ohne_worte]

So you think they are doing that because they are afraid that Merkel uses her phone to discuss her secret plans for world domination?

[alexvdl]

No. I think that the NSA's job is to collect SIGINT in order to protect the sovereignty and interests of the US, and tapping the head of the most powerful country in the EU falls right in line with that.

[lied_ohne_worte]

If you truly think that current-day Germany and the EU are threatening US sovereignty, then I don't even know what to say. Germany in particular has such a big, strong military, with nuclear weapons, long-range missiles, aircraft carriers, a population that is totally supportive of military action abroad (and a legal code that makes such a thing possible), that I'm sure there is no way the US could ever defend itself. /sarcasm

And your reference to German history and us being ~enemies~ of the US really sounded as if you thought there was a) a chance of Germany entering into war with the US, and b) any chance of us actually winning such a war. You must be scared no end of a Canadian invasion, too.

[alexvdl]

First off, while I understand your sarcasm, you might want to look at history. There's no way that a bunch of peasants with no standing military could have fought off a world spanning empire at the height of their power, right? There's no way that a country that is completely destitute from losing a previous bid to take over all of Europe could come within fingertips of doing it again, not fifty years later

[omimouse]

Nation states have done *lots* of different things for thousands of years. This does not make these things acceptable.

If we want close diplomatic ties with Europe, we really need to stop acting like we're entitled to spy on them because 'that's just what nations *do*'. I mean, if various EU countries like Germany find it unacceptable for their *own* government to do this kind of thing to them, what makes you think they'll be perfectly fine with the US doing it? Especially since of late, we're the ones with one hell of a track record in the ignoring human rights department.

[alexvdl]

*shrugs* If I was running the country I'd do things a helluva lot differently. People that do this for a living seem to think that the way they are doing it is the right way to do it. At some point they made the determination that the information gathered from these operations is worth the diplomatic fallout if/when they are caught doing it.

At some point our allies will decide that the shit we do outweighs the usefulness of being our ally. Right now, the US is on top and acting like it will always be on top. If the US ever stops being the biggest guy in the schoolyard, it's going to downhill for us rather quickly.

[danyjoncew]

A lot of us in Latin America have been joking that the US needs to pay close attention to her because starting a third consecutive mandate is very Hugo Chávez like :-p.

[lied_ohne_worte]

Heh, the best argument against your worries is that I really don't think Merkel would be competent enough for any nefarious plots. ;-) And Helmut Kohl was Chancellor for 16 years - I still think that apart from political reasons, he lost the election in 1998 because people were simply sick and tired of him.

[mistress_siana]

It's not, actually. US-German relations were either non-existent, hostile, or near-hostile until Germany joined the NATO in 1955, arguably. You could debate at which point precisely the USA and Germany became allies, but in any case, the alliance has been persistent. At no point in history did Germany turn from an ally into an enemy.