Monument for Sinti and Roma victims of Nazis highlights German government hypocrisy

[jettakd]

By Bernd Reinhardt
29 October 2012

On October 24, a central memorial for the 500,000 Sinti and Roma murdered by the Nazis was unveiled in Berlin. The monument is sited immediately next to the Bundestag (parliament) building. It is also close to the Holocaust memorial for the Jews murdered during Nazi rule

Comments

[pleasure_past]

they had not been persecuted in the Third Reich on racist grounds, but because they displayed criminal tendencies.

Unlike, you know, the Germans who killed 6 million people. Yes. Clearly it is the Roma and the Sinti who lack moral instinct here.

Even though they eventually admitted it was racism, it's still obviously too little too late. This is obviously just another political ploy to seem ~enlightened~ without really sacrificing anything or changing any behavior/policies.

...If you need me, I'll be despairing for humanity.

[eldvno]

Fuck you, the Germans did NOT kill ANYONE, the people responsible for the atrocities were Nazis.

[pleasure_past]

... I was afraid that would happen. Yes. Let's please make this post all about how hard it is to be German. The important thing here is clearly that people are still have not forgotten about that tiny little genocide thing.

Nazis were German (and Austrian). Deal with it. German judges in the goddamn 1950s did not have a leg to stand on when they called other ethnic groups immoral. Especially not ethnic groups that they'd barely finished raping, starving, enslaving, and slaughtering, and were and are still in the process of denying basic rights and generally treating like shit.

[eldvno]

Is it really that hard to say Nazis instead of Germans? it is fewer letters for god sakes. When people use the word 'German' they are condemning innocent people from history and today who are not culpable for the crimes of the Nazis. When you use the term Nazi, you are only condemning those who deserve to be condemned.

[pleasure_past]

Oh, go fuck yourself. You just read an entire article on Germans treating Romani like shit and blatantly invoking the "superiority" of the German race to do so, years after the fall of the Third Reich, and describing the negative affect that German racism is having on these people to this day and the only thing you feel the need to comment on is how unfair I'm being to the poor, put-upon German people? Are you fucking kidding me?

I know some Americans who, like, totally never owned slaves that you would get along wonderfully with.

And for the record, part of my ethnic heritage is German and I'm typing this comment from my bedroom... in Austria.

[jettakd]

THANK YOU.

The Romani are one of the most persecuted groups in history but ~*what about the poor white Germans*~ omg fuck that shit.

[eldvno]

Oh, well you are part German, so case closed, you win.

I am very upset that the German government took so long to put up this monument, and I strongly oppose the racism which is still found all around German (much like that kinds of racism found in EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN EUROPE TOWARDS ROMAS) in fact, on the whole, when comparing EU and CoE nations, Germany does better than most in its treatment of Romas. Of course, I am quick to point out that "better than most" still means "quite poor" but when you go along the German/French border you can see the stark difference in each countries treatment of the Roma.

However, that does not excuse using the word 'German', instead of 'Nazi', I would never want someone to use the term 'Southern' instead of 'Confederate'. There is no reason to use the term German, because it unnecessary vilifies an entire group of people.

[sfrlz]

As a southerner, I don't mind people using the term "Southern" to describe anything fucked up about the South, because part of fixing shit is acknowledging that bad things are a part of your history.

[pleasure_past]

Well, you know, if you want to continue throwing a fit about what a German-stereotyping meanie I am, it seems relevant. I didn't choose to be Bavaria's next-door neighbor because I thought it sounded like fun to be surrounded by Nazis.

I said "Germans" instead of "Nazis" because I was talking about the German judges speaking well after the fall of the Third Reich and invoking the supposed racial superiority of Germans in their ruling. In other words, I meant Germans, not Nazis, because "Nazis" is not an ethnic group. I know very well that most modern-day Germans are not Nazis, but I am hardly the one who made this about ethnicity. Their own ethnicity had just committed genocide, and these judges themselves were probably directly involved, and they wanted to cast stones at another ethnicity--one of their then and current victims, at that--over stereotypes that they steal a lot. Yeah, the hypocrisy in that deserves to be pointed out. Germans who can't handle that are way too sensitive about entirely the wrong things

[milchzucker]

I am with you, in case you want to say that there were not just Germans but also French, Polish, Austrian, Scandinavian... Nazis. Hitler had supporters in most of the European countries (and in some even quite a lot). But if you really want to say there've been the bad people - the German Nazis - and the good people (which would be the rest without the uniforms etc. I guess?) than I get to refer to my first answer.

[jettakd]

And considering how racist those countries still also are to the Romani, than yeah that's apropos. Hell, Francois Holland wants to put them back in camps :|

[pleasure_past]

I am aware that not all Nazis were German, but the first sentence of my reply was in direct response to German judges invoking their own ethnic superiority in a ruling. Trust me, I am not at all in denial about the existence of Austrian (or French, or Polish, or whatever else) Nazis.

[jettakd]

The Germans and other Europeans are responsible for the genocide and systematic oppression of Romani people TO THIS VERY DAY. So much so that many Romani people consider tis a coming of the second Porrajmos (Romani holocaust) and yes the German people were and are responsible for it.

[milchzucker]

In fact there are verifying documents which show people who'd never been your typically Nazi did hurt and let lazars/beggars (often Roma or Sinti) die. As much as not every Nazi was (and is) German, not every guilty German was a Nazi.

I'm not okay with everything in the quoted/ linked article, but saying "Bad things were done by Nazis, not by our normal and totally unguilty ancestors" - nothing else is said here - puts a line between "us" (or better said our ancestors) and "them". And this is just not true.
My grandparents hadn't the chance to participate in any way, because there weren't any Roma, Sinti, Jews, gays, active opposition members and - as far as I know - handicapped people in their neighbourhood. They've been farmers. But in all love and in all honesty I can't say for sure if they would have not been an active part of the system if one of the above mentioned people were in trouble created by the government. This http://www.conne-island.de/nf/53/19.html ( ... )

[eldvno]

I agree, but it rubs me the wrong way because Nazi far more accurately describes the people who are to blame. As you pointed out in another response, Nazis and Nazi sympathizers were all over Europe. So when you use Germans you are forgetting there are more than just Germans to blame. It is more of a mouthful, but Nazi and Nazi sympathizers is the best way to talk about this issue. If my relatives had been near the war zone, I, like you, am not sure what they would have done. But they weren't, and they didn't engage with Nazis, and I don't want them to be painted as evil or aligned with Hitler.

[tabaqui]

This. My mother's family is German. We have a dear, dear friend who is German. Neither of those people had anything to do with Nazis, camps, or genocide.