but freedom of movement is *sacrosanct* ....jazzypomJune 27 2016, 09:33:35 UTC
To the European project though. This is what Farage, Gove, Johnson and et al have neglected to tell the people.
You can't have checked European migration if you're a part of the EU, because the EU project is about movement of people within its borders and living and working within the said Schegen borders (of which Britain isn't a part of).
A lot of people in England and Wales are against freedom of movement (I won't use the word migration here because it muddies the waters), because unchecked freedom of movement have affected the white working class who were already abandoned by Thatcher's policies in the 1980s (the Tory government conspired to do a 'managed decline' of the North because they opposed Thatcher's policies).
Non investment in Northern communities have seen a lot of brain drain (the best and brightest go to London or down South).
In addition, you have businesses who will advertise jobs in various countries (Romania for instance) for vacancies in Britain, and none for the local populace because they can avoid minimum wage, et al,. As a result, you have these small towns just feeling invaded and Labour and Conservative politicians who live in London that think everywhere is London where there's always investment. I know that my London friends were shocked, whereas me, living in my area, I wasn't surprised that it was fifty fifty.
The Universities and higher education people voted to remain, those who are lower educated and ignored by Conservative and New Labour (Conservative-Lite) politicians are pretty alienated from the great EU 'project'.
I do think we do need to stay in the EU, especially with all the brain drain we're going to face by people leaving, but the austerity protocols by the Conservatives over the years haven't helped.
RE: but freedom of movement is *sacrosanct* ....pullhimdownJune 27 2016, 10:06:46 UTC
To the European project though. This is what Farage, Gove, Johnson and et al have neglected to tell the people.
How can people not do basic fact checking on this, though? Like, yeah, the media and the conservatives lied, but for fuck's sake. Just Google the Schegen area. Look at Norway and at Switzerland. Freedom of movement is pretty much a requirement for free trade. What were people expecting? That Europe as a whole would just roll over for a country that sent itself into a recession and might have splintered itself in the process?
That's okay, bb, it was more a rhetorical question than anything. This whole thing is just completely baffling. Someone tweeted that the UK is now living in a post-factual democracy, and that's the most accurate thing I've ever seen.
RE: but freedom of movement is *sacrosanct* ....pullhimdownJune 27 2016, 11:52:27 UTC
Man, there's being delusional and then there's... yeah. The more I think about it the more certain I am that no one really believed Leave would win, and now it has and everyone's at a loss of what to do. The EU will never roll over for them, so they'll have no choice but to agree to the free trade terms like everyone else, which will mean open borders and paying basically as much as they paid to be in the EU and following their regulations, while effectively removing themselves from the rooms where those decisions are made. So basically they pissed of the EU, weakened their country and tanked the economy for nothing.
And this nothing but the logical conclusion to their actions. Like, I can see while someone who takes what the Sun prints as facts would think this was a good idea, but there's no way any politician would half a functioning brain wouldn't see the consequences of this.
pretty much yeahjazzypomJune 27 2016, 11:58:48 UTC
It was an argument between two privileged Eton Old Boys that pretty much broke the country in two. Margaret Thatcher's legacy totally fulfilled.
Like, I can see while someone who takes what the Sun prints as facts would think this was a good idea, but there's no way any politician would half a functioning brain wouldn't see the consequences of this.
True. All this blame is at Cameron's feet, tbh. He got cocky after the Scottish referendum (where I thought that he'd been a lucky boy), and thought he'd get lucky again.
Cameron was hoping to win because he wanted to be in Europe, and Johnson and Gove were hoping to lose so that he'd have bonafides re: a principled stance to position Johnson at the head of the Conservative party and Gove as his right hand man.
It's been especially galling for the Conservatives because they've always positioned themselves as a party of business, but they've pretty much tanked the economy and lost Europe. Huzzah.
It's pretty risky walking around not being white though. I'm not looking forward to work at all.
RE: pretty much yeahpullhimdownJune 27 2016, 12:08:56 UTC
Cameron's a fucking moron. He played the referendum card to win the elections, won the elections, fucked up left and right in the Remain campaign, lost the referendum, and doesn't even have the balls to deal with the consequences of his actions, so because of his own stupidity and cowardice, we now have to spend three months in limbo with the economy a goddamn mess, before someone starts the leaving process.
Just completely unbelievable all around.
It's pretty risky walking around not being white though
That really worries me. My best friend is a black portuguese dude currently living and working in London. It's a really scary time all around.
Re: RE: pretty much yeahjazzypomJune 27 2016, 12:19:39 UTC
Cameron's a fucking moron. He played the referendum card to win the elections, won the elections, fucked up left and right in the Remain campaign, lost the referendum, and doesn't even have the balls to deal with the consequences of his actions, so because of his own stupidity and cowardice, we now have to spend three months in limbo with the economy, before someone starts the leaving process.
I agree. Everyone knows that toxic part of the conservative party was the one who got John Major in the end. That particular bloc you can't reason with, and he should have expunged it.
People seem to forget that the referendum can be stopped though? As it is, it has to go through parliament for them to sign off on it, and the Tories are pretty appalled that their party, long being the brand of business and order, has become a byword for economic treachery and buffoonery. You really can't make it up.
Cameron was well within his rights to scupper the referendum (due to our law a referendum is a guide, and it could have been squashed in Parliament) citing national interest, but like you said, cowardly.
Re: RE: pretty much yeahpullhimdownJune 27 2016, 12:23:14 UTC
I mean, it can because the result isn't binding, but everyone's sure that not following through would be political suicide. And the EU did just kind of go "Bye, Felicia" at the UK, though I don't know if they can kick a country out if said country decides not to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty.
There's this very interesting theory making the rounds, but I have some serious doubts as to how realistic that is. And that Cameron would have the brains to pull it off.
Re: RE: pretty much yeahjazzypomJune 27 2016, 12:34:58 UTC
I mean, it can because the result isn't binding, but everyone's sure that not signing it would be political suicide
And to sign off on it will be political suicide, because of the free fall of the pound, and the cratering of the economy. Not to mention the Houses of Parliament and the House of Lords (sh*t, I forgot about them) are the two buffers that you'd have to get through to have it signed off.
And the EU did just kind of go "Bye, Felicia" at the UK, though I don't know if they can kick a country out if said country decides not to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty.
Marginally. It's not as if it were an overwhelming choice like 70-30 to leave.
I'm aware that the EU do want us to get on with it, but ALAS, our Parliament is still in recess (to reconvene today or tomorrow) and all the political parties are in disarray. Cameron pretty much lobbed a political bomb at his country, and we have exploded.
Re: RE: pretty much yeahpullhimdownJune 27 2016, 13:01:32 UTC
I'm aware that the EU do want us to get on with it,
As well they should. The extended three months of uncertainty and instability isn't doing anyone any good. Prolonging the situation is about the worst thing to do now.
As much as I disagree with the result, ignoring the result of the referendum is spitting on democracy's face. They asked the people what they wanted. The majority of the people spoke. Unless there's accusations of voting manipulation or something along those lines, it's what it is. Politicians shouldn't get to ignore a referendum result just because they don't agree with the outcome. What's the point of having a referendum in the first place, then?
Same for the petition for the second referendum. That's not how democracy works, you don't get do-overs until you get the result you want.
You can't have checked European migration if you're a part of the EU, because the EU project is about movement of people within its borders and living and working within the said Schegen borders (of which Britain isn't a part of).
A lot of people in England and Wales are against freedom of movement (I won't use the word migration here because it muddies the waters), because unchecked freedom of movement have affected the white working class who were already abandoned by Thatcher's policies in the 1980s (the Tory government conspired to do a 'managed decline' of the North because they opposed Thatcher's policies).
Non investment in Northern communities have seen a lot of brain drain (the best and brightest go to London or down South).
In addition, you have businesses who will advertise jobs in various countries (Romania for instance) for vacancies in Britain, and none for the local populace because they can avoid minimum wage, et al,. As a result, you have these small towns just feeling invaded and Labour and Conservative politicians who live in London that think everywhere is London where there's always investment. I know that my London friends were shocked, whereas me, living in my area, I wasn't surprised that it was fifty fifty.
The Universities and higher education people voted to remain, those who are lower educated and ignored by Conservative and New Labour (Conservative-Lite) politicians are pretty alienated from the great EU 'project'.
I do think we do need to stay in the EU, especially with all the brain drain we're going to face by people leaving, but the austerity protocols by the Conservatives over the years haven't helped.
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How can people not do basic fact checking on this, though? Like, yeah, the media and the conservatives lied, but for fuck's sake. Just Google the Schegen area. Look at Norway and at Switzerland. Freedom of movement is pretty much a requirement for free trade. What were people expecting? That Europe as a whole would just roll over for a country that sent itself into a recession and might have splintered itself in the process?
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OMG. Some people really shouldn't breed. OMG.
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And this nothing but the logical conclusion to their actions. Like, I can see while someone who takes what the Sun prints as facts would think this was a good idea, but there's no way any politician would half a functioning brain wouldn't see the consequences of this.
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Like, I can see while someone who takes what the Sun prints as facts would think this was a good idea, but there's no way any politician would half a functioning brain wouldn't see the consequences of this.
True. All this blame is at Cameron's feet, tbh. He got cocky after the Scottish referendum (where I thought that he'd been a lucky boy), and thought he'd get lucky again.
Cameron was hoping to win because he wanted to be in Europe, and Johnson and Gove were hoping to lose so that he'd have bonafides re: a principled stance to position Johnson at the head of the Conservative party and Gove as his right hand man.
It's been especially galling for the Conservatives because they've always positioned themselves as a party of business, but they've pretty much tanked the economy and lost Europe. Huzzah.
It's pretty risky walking around not being white though. I'm not looking forward to work at all.
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Just completely unbelievable all around.
It's pretty risky walking around not being white though
That really worries me. My best friend is a black portuguese dude currently living and working in London. It's a really scary time all around.
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I agree. Everyone knows that toxic part of the conservative party was the one who got John Major in the end. That particular bloc you can't reason with, and he should have expunged it.
People seem to forget that the referendum can be stopped though? As it is, it has to go through parliament for them to sign off on it, and the Tories are pretty appalled that their party, long being the brand of business and order, has become a byword for economic treachery and buffoonery. You really can't make it up.
Cameron was well within his rights to scupper the referendum (due to our law a referendum is a guide, and it could have been squashed in Parliament) citing national interest, but like you said, cowardly.
Oh well, this is where we are.
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There's this very interesting theory making the rounds, but I have some serious doubts as to how realistic that is. And that Cameron would have the brains to pull it off.
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And to sign off on it will be political suicide, because of the free fall of the pound, and the cratering of the economy. Not to mention the Houses of Parliament and the House of Lords (sh*t, I forgot about them) are the two buffers that you'd have to get through to have it signed off.
And the EU did just kind of go "Bye, Felicia" at the UK, though I don't know if they can kick a country out if said country decides not to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty.
Marginally. It's not as if it were an overwhelming choice like 70-30 to leave.
I'm aware that the EU do want us to get on with it, but ALAS, our Parliament is still in recess (to reconvene today or tomorrow) and all the political parties are in disarray. Cameron pretty much lobbed a political bomb at his country, and we have exploded.
Reply
As well they should. The extended three months of uncertainty and instability isn't doing anyone any good. Prolonging the situation is about the worst thing to do now.
As much as I disagree with the result, ignoring the result of the referendum is spitting on democracy's face. They asked the people what they wanted. The majority of the people spoke. Unless there's accusations of voting manipulation or something along those lines, it's what it is. Politicians shouldn't get to ignore a referendum result just because they don't agree with the outcome. What's the point of having a referendum in the first place, then?
Same for the petition for the second referendum. That's not how democracy works, you don't get do-overs until you get the result you want.
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