gahh boo, you deleted your comment. jazzypomMarch 13 2015, 09:23:55 UTC
wow, the salah / serie a article is one of the biggest piles of bullshit i've read lately. yeah, completely disregard technical & playing style differences in both leagues + player progress as a regular starter, why don't you. and if the epl is be-all and end-all of the football world, why are english teams crashing out of europe one by one?
LOL a question for the ages. I just remember how Jozy Altitdore was supernova in the Eredivisie and came to the PL and only got one goal with Sunderland the entire time he's been here, then went to MLS and seems to have started off well. It's just different leagues play up the different aspects of a player's style. Or it could be various tactics that suit Salah, or even the cliché of confidence. Salah is getting first team minutes and a coach who seems to believe in him, whereas Mourinho seemed to malign him on the sidelines.
Or Soldado who was banging them in at Valencia and is now struggling at Spurs. It's just different - the saying goes that Italy is tactical, Spain is positional and England is physical. I thought the article was pretty simplistic - and for all of Serie's A feebleness, they seem to be well in shot of getting the top four places and the EPL will be losing one.
why are english teams crashing out of europe one by one?
I wonder if it's the schedule, tbh. Too much matches, too little breaks (unless it's international) and up to recently for competing in the Europa league, it just wasn't worth the teams' while financially to show up, or even the coach's/manager's attitude towards the competition. For instance, you can see that Martinez (Everton) sets great store by it. He's all, "Yeah, our domestic form is pants and we'll have to sort it, but Europa doe!" Whereas Rodgers (of LFC) seems to see European nights as a distraction rather than a destination (vexing for me). The romance of European nights kinda left English football circa 2010 I think with the FA and the UEFA having tussles. Or that might just be me.
In addition, the changing game play where we've swapped tradition for a hybrid that's not really working at the mo. England use to have proper defensive games. In that you'd score a goal, and defend, defend, but people wanted exciting games, so they've thrown out the defensive baby with the bath water which has bemused me over the years, for real. They've mistranslated what fast moving tiki taki football means, tbh.
I don't know if you wanted a serious comment for your question, but it got me wondering. REPLY
RE: gahh boo, you deleted your comment.marsykeMarch 13 2015, 10:06:56 UTC
You might be right about the tactical problems. If I look at it from the view of the Belgian press:
Somewhere between 2005 and 2011, English teams were the teams with the most pedigree here. On CL nights my tv station would choose the matches with English teams. Every football fan knew who played for United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea. But with the arrival of Messi and Pep's Barca that changed, Barca became the benchmark after 2009, Bayern after 2012 and now we have a triumvirate of Barcelona, Bayern and Real Madrid. Of course they are not perfect and they don't play great every single time but when they truly hit gear, they play fabulous football, stylish, elegant, more beautiful than the Italian NT in their Dolce&Gabbana suits. (my opinion and that of a bunch football journalists here). I think the English teams want to try for a style that is somewhat a mix of those 3 teams but with players not suited for that style and that doesn't work obviously. They should try to find a style that fits the team they have and buy players that fit in that style. Don't try to beat them at their own game or be clever but start from your own strengths.
Re: gahh boo, you deleted your comment.jazzypomMarch 13 2015, 10:26:53 UTC
Yeah, Guardiola really brought about a sea change with his positional football. He took Cryuff's ideas, distilled them and had the fortune of having intelligent game savvy players (short supply, them, never as much as you'd think!), and what with Mourinho's Real Madrid and such, it made for magic, during that period of 2009-2011 that's for sure.
I think English coaches/ teams saw that and something got lost in the translation. I look at Brendan Rodgers LFC and see what he's trying to do, and come away as him not seeing the entire picture. Yeah, LFC is doing well, I'm not going to deny that, and okay Anfield's pitch isn't what it should be I'm not going to deny that either - but something is lost in the translation.
The reason why it hit me has been the tussle with Sam Allardyce and his troubles with West Ham. When he came in, Alldardyce's remit was to stop the rot with West Ham, yeah? So he did, with traditional English tactics. The games were heavily defensive, long balls, etc (the play that Mourinho sniffed at and called '19th century football') he wasn't leaking goals but the supporters wanted spectacle and the board gave him the directive that they wanted that kind of football too. Allardyce brought in Teddy Sheringham as a strike coach to meet the directive. On one hand, yeah, I like watching West Ham, but on the other hand, something is lost when you do that. I just think that the coaches and board directors et al just mistranslated Guardiola and 'the Spanish way'. They ignore the positional discipline of Spanish teams, and rely on individual brilliance of the players Roy of the Rovers style.
Strangely, the hybrid I think English football wants might be what Pochettino (an Argentine coach) is trying to do? If he got Spurs' defence sorted (and finish finessing a plan B- I believe in you, Poch!), I think that might be the perfect template. I know that's why I've been watching him closely since September last year. I thought it amusing that Spurs were drowning in the PL but getting through Europe. I really think if Pochettino had the players that he wanted (he likes the players young and hungry and fighting) he'd have still been in Europa. I'm watching Pochettino with interest because he's young enough in the coaching game to change his viewpoints, and him coming from La Liga to the PL has been interesting to me, tbh.
I think they should bring back decent defending in the PL again, tbh. But to be fair, football comes in cycles. I'm sure they'll come around to defending again.
RE: Re: gahh boo, you deleted your comment.marsykeMarch 13 2015, 11:09:09 UTC
Lol they definitely will. New coaches will find new solutions. Spurs are an interesting team that's for sure, if only they could indeed find a good balance between defense and attack.
LOL a question for the ages. I just remember how Jozy Altitdore was supernova in the Eredivisie and came to the PL and only got one goal with Sunderland the entire time he's been here, then went to MLS and seems to have started off well. It's just different leagues play up the different aspects of a player's style. Or it could be various tactics that suit Salah, or even the cliché of confidence. Salah is getting first team minutes and a coach who seems to believe in him, whereas Mourinho seemed to malign him on the sidelines.
Or Soldado who was banging them in at Valencia and is now struggling at Spurs. It's just different - the saying goes that Italy is tactical, Spain is positional and England is physical. I thought the article was pretty simplistic - and for all of Serie's A feebleness, they seem to be well in shot of getting the top four places and the EPL will be losing one.
why are english teams crashing out of europe one by one?
I wonder if it's the schedule, tbh. Too much matches, too little breaks (unless it's international) and up to recently for competing in the Europa league, it just wasn't worth the teams' while financially to show up, or even the coach's/manager's attitude towards the competition. For instance, you can see that Martinez (Everton) sets great store by it. He's all, "Yeah, our domestic form is pants and we'll have to sort it, but Europa doe!" Whereas Rodgers (of LFC) seems to see European nights as a distraction rather than a destination (vexing for me). The romance of European nights kinda left English football circa 2010 I think with the FA and the UEFA having tussles. Or that might just be me.
In addition, the changing game play where we've swapped tradition for a hybrid that's not really working at the mo. England use to have proper defensive games. In that you'd score a goal, and defend, defend, but people wanted exciting games, so they've thrown out the defensive baby with the bath water which has bemused me over the years, for real. They've mistranslated what fast moving tiki taki football means, tbh.
I don't know if you wanted a serious comment for your question, but it got me wondering.
REPLY
Reply
Somewhere between 2005 and 2011, English teams were the teams with the most pedigree here. On CL nights my tv station would choose the matches with English teams. Every football fan knew who played for United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea.
But with the arrival of Messi and Pep's Barca that changed, Barca became the benchmark after 2009, Bayern after 2012 and now we have a triumvirate of Barcelona, Bayern and Real Madrid.
Of course they are not perfect and they don't play great every single time but when they truly hit gear, they play fabulous football, stylish, elegant, more beautiful than the Italian NT in their Dolce&Gabbana suits. (my opinion and that of a bunch football journalists here).
I think the English teams want to try for a style that is somewhat a mix of those 3 teams but with players not suited for that style and that doesn't work obviously. They should try to find a style that fits the team they have and buy players that fit in that style. Don't try to beat them at their own game or be clever but start from your own strengths.
Reply
I think English coaches/ teams saw that and something got lost in the translation. I look at Brendan Rodgers LFC and see what he's trying to do, and come away as him not seeing the entire picture. Yeah, LFC is doing well, I'm not going to deny that, and okay Anfield's pitch isn't what it should be I'm not going to deny that either - but something is lost in the translation.
The reason why it hit me has been the tussle with Sam Allardyce and his troubles with West Ham. When he came in, Alldardyce's remit was to stop the rot with West Ham, yeah? So he did, with traditional English tactics. The games were heavily defensive, long balls, etc (the play that Mourinho sniffed at and called '19th century football') he wasn't leaking goals but the supporters wanted spectacle and the board gave him the directive that they wanted that kind of football too. Allardyce brought in Teddy Sheringham as a strike coach to meet the directive. On one hand, yeah, I like watching West Ham, but on the other hand, something is lost when you do that. I just think that the coaches and board directors et al just mistranslated Guardiola and 'the Spanish way'. They ignore the positional discipline of Spanish teams, and rely on individual brilliance of the players Roy of the Rovers style.
Strangely, the hybrid I think English football wants might be what Pochettino (an Argentine coach) is trying to do? If he got Spurs' defence sorted (and finish finessing a plan B- I believe in you, Poch!), I think that might be the perfect template. I know that's why I've been watching him closely since September last year. I thought it amusing that Spurs were drowning in the PL but getting through Europe. I really think if Pochettino had the players that he wanted (he likes the players young and hungry and fighting) he'd have still been in Europa. I'm watching Pochettino with interest because he's young enough in the coaching game to change his viewpoints, and him coming from La Liga to the PL has been interesting to me, tbh.
I think they should bring back decent defending in the PL again, tbh. But to be fair, football comes in cycles. I'm sure they'll come around to defending again.
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