Re: long comment ahead (I have a day off)jazzypomMarch 13 2015, 09:09:12 UTC
Yeah, I think Carragher has a point as well in terms of clubs and managers throwing money at a problem hoping that it will be fixed, shades of Tottenham Hotspur when they got the money for Bale - and bought a hodgepodge of talents that haven't worked (same for Liverpool, to be fair), which is why Spurs seem to be a pretty exciting team at the moment, with Pochettino focusing on an identity, style of play and academy talent (mix of English and homegrown players) instead of spending more money and ending up with players on the wage bill who can't play for various reasons. Not all managers are Jose Mourinho, and not all clubs are Chelsea who know their horseflesh, so to speak.
Newcastle has it easy. They got twice as much tv money as Bayern München last season, twice as much as PSG, Valencia and Atletico and the same as Juventus. Of course the money in the Europa League looks insignificant compared to that.
Pretty much, it's really a case of why bother, and Europa was seen as an also ran and a lesser tournament. The attitude towards Europa is changing due to the CL pot at the end of the rainbow. With regards to Newcastle specifically, I think Newcastle has a target of not coming below tenth place (in terms of money, rights and such) and prioritising the league instead of having to travel to various Europa places and probably risk fines or supporters being out of pocket and whatnot (LFC supports and Turkish clubs). It's just easy not to go and focus on domestic cups (and I don't even think that they are doing that but that's the attitude of the club's owner which isn't the attitude of the supporters who want glory and not just playing in the PL).
There is the feeling that up to recently, the English clubs were sending second stringers to Europa because it suited them gunning for CL places and such, so the Europa competition offering CL places - well.
And they underestimate the European teams because when they don't really know any of the players and the opponent is a lot poorer, they think they'll be an easy bait (see Monaco, Besiktas, Fiorentina, Basel or even Anderlecht). While the opponent is mostly well prepared and extremely motivated (some players want to impress the English clubs in order to make a lucrative transfer too).
A lot of the managers in the PL clubs are European or have worked in Europe ( from the top 4 English clubs alone: Pellegrini worked extensively in Spain, Mourinho and Arsene, we know their pedigree - Rodgers supposedly did a sabbatical in Spain, learning the language and the style of play ) so that's not an excuse, especially if they're tracking players with an eye to see how they'll slot into their teams.
Like Xabi Alonso said, the best coaches are those who can see the pathways of various competitions and plan accordingly. Rafa Benetiz knew Europe, so when LFC played European teams, you just dug in, threw the lock across the door and made the match ugly. When LFC played in the PL, he made the teams attacking and from 2007, built the strikeforce around Torres. Cup final with lower tiered matches, you made it physical. A lot of the managers don't seem to have that nous? (Although I think Mourinho just refused to rotate his players, in truth, Chelsea shouldn't have lost the matches that they lost).
It doesn't help that the FA and UEFA seem to have a willy measuring contest?
FA doesn't really seem to care about European competition? Oh, they say they do, but Mourinho (when he's not engaging in panto villainy) has spoken about the FA not really giving a toss about scheduling and UEFA. Then there's shimmering tension between the UEFA and FA because you can't have matches at scheduled times because it will ruin their viewership figures.
The belief is that the best players nowadays are only going to go to teams that make it to the CL, so you do get the feeling that the clubs and FA are going to clash soon, because they will want to attract players but the schedule is untenable, what with the new match days to be added in 2016. UEFA and FA seem to have their own fault lines of disagreement too. It's just the tip of the iceberg with everything, really.
Sorry for the long comment, you got me on the hop before I have to go and run some errands, again.
RE: Re: long comment ahead (I have a day off)marsykeMarch 13 2015, 09:43:07 UTC
Haha no problem (I have time to read). I agree with most of what you say. It's probably the journalists more than the coaches who underestimate European opposition.
Only 6 English teams qualified for the CL in the past decade or so. For most English clubs, the EL is the most realistic way of qualifying for the CL but the way is long and hard. And difficult to fit in with the various cups and the league. Basically you'd have to get rid of a cup or only allow teams that are not qualified for Europe; that would give other clubs the chance to win it too (Portsmouth and Wigan are the only not-CL playing teams that won in the past 10 years). For the League Cup Swansea and Birmingham are the odd ones). It probably won't be popular with the big clubs but it would be nice, I think.
The trouble between the UEFA and FA is indeed making things more difficult that's for sure.
Re: RE: Re: long comment ahead (I have a day off)jazzypomMarch 13 2015, 10:04:43 UTC
There's one cup that sponsorship is gone a begging (I want to say League Cup), I'd get rid of that and keep the FA cup, since it's stepped in history and it covers non leagues as well as the league (whereas the capital cup or whatever is named now is league teams only). With more matches in 2016, I'm warming up to a suggestion that you made a couple of months ago, re: dropping 20 teams to 18. With an extra match day come 2016, 20 teams is too much. You'd have to go from about twenty five squad players to thirty and rotate to have an even chance of winning something.
There used to be a competition for the under 21s that was supposed to be a good bedding in for younger talent in clubs, and it was pretty immense and relatively democratic, and because my memory is a sieve nowadays I can't remember the name, but UEFA threw a strop and brought out lawyers so it had to be disregarded.
Once Platini got into UEFA, I think that's when things started to change I think. Platini is... difficult. What's with the English vs French bodies, eh? FA and FIFA would exist in a world without each other if they could.
RE: Re: RE: Re: long comment ahead (I have a day off)marsykeMarch 13 2015, 10:18:09 UTC
England and France have a very long history of trouble between them. Guess it won't ever go well. Here on the continent they sometimes think that the Brits like to do difficult because there are back on their island anyway, here we all sit on top of each other.
There is now a new youth competition, the Youth League. The youth teams of the CL group participants play each other like in the group stage of the big competition. (which means off course, the big teams get in once again). After the group stage, it goes on in one-leg ties. It gets a bit of attention here because Anderlecht beat Bvb, Arsenal and Barcelona and are now in the quarters.
RE: Re: long comment ahead (I have a day off)chrysaMarch 13 2015, 15:26:28 UTC
Well, one thing money certainly doesn't buy -- not experience :P -- is chemistry. I think this is most apparent in Utd this season. Bringing in a World Class manager, and throwing stupid money at World Class players can't make them play well together in a system that's not suited to them. I mean the fact that they are winning is a sign that are class, but the fact that they're playing ugly, horrible, inconsistent football really shows that lack of chemistry.
though the one funny note I saw: Chelsea losing to PSG is all a Conspiracy to keep Arsenal from their rightful (aka contractually obligated) qualification for UCL football hahaha.
Newcastle has it easy. They got twice as much tv money as Bayern München last season, twice as much as PSG, Valencia and Atletico and the same as Juventus. Of course the money in the Europa League looks insignificant compared to that.
Pretty much, it's really a case of why bother, and Europa was seen as an also ran and a lesser tournament. The attitude towards Europa is changing due to the CL pot at the end of the rainbow. With regards to Newcastle specifically, I think Newcastle has a target of not coming below tenth place (in terms of money, rights and such) and prioritising the league instead of having to travel to various Europa places and probably risk fines or supporters being out of pocket and whatnot (LFC supports and Turkish clubs). It's just easy not to go and focus on domestic cups (and I don't even think that they are doing that but that's the attitude of the club's owner which isn't the attitude of the supporters who want glory and not just playing in the PL).
There is the feeling that up to recently, the English clubs were sending second stringers to Europa because it suited them gunning for CL places and such, so the Europa competition offering CL places - well.
And they underestimate the European teams because when they don't really know any of the players and the opponent is a lot poorer, they think they'll be an easy bait (see Monaco, Besiktas, Fiorentina, Basel or even Anderlecht). While the opponent is mostly well prepared and extremely motivated (some players want to impress the English clubs in order to make a lucrative transfer too).
A lot of the managers in the PL clubs are European or have worked in Europe ( from the top 4 English clubs alone: Pellegrini worked extensively in Spain, Mourinho and Arsene, we know their pedigree - Rodgers supposedly did a sabbatical in Spain, learning the language and the style of play ) so that's not an excuse, especially if they're tracking players with an eye to see how they'll slot into their teams.
Like Xabi Alonso said, the best coaches are those who can see the pathways of various competitions and plan accordingly. Rafa Benetiz knew Europe, so when LFC played European teams, you just dug in, threw the lock across the door and made the match ugly. When LFC played in the PL, he made the teams attacking and from 2007, built the strikeforce around Torres. Cup final with lower tiered matches, you made it physical. A lot of the managers don't seem to have that nous? (Although I think Mourinho just refused to rotate his players, in truth, Chelsea shouldn't have lost the matches that they lost).
It doesn't help that the FA and UEFA seem to have a willy measuring contest?
FA doesn't really seem to care about European competition? Oh, they say they do, but Mourinho (when he's not engaging in panto villainy) has spoken about the FA not really giving a toss about scheduling and UEFA. Then there's shimmering tension between the UEFA and FA because you can't have matches at scheduled times because it will ruin their viewership figures.
The belief is that the best players nowadays are only going to go to teams that make it to the CL, so you do get the feeling that the clubs and FA are going to clash soon, because they will want to attract players but the schedule is untenable, what with the new match days to be added in 2016. UEFA and FA seem to have their own fault lines of disagreement too. It's just the tip of the iceberg with everything, really.
Sorry for the long comment, you got me on the hop before I have to go and run some errands, again.
Reply
Only 6 English teams qualified for the CL in the past decade or so. For most English clubs, the EL is the most realistic way of qualifying for the CL but the way is long and hard. And difficult to fit in with the various cups and the league. Basically you'd have to get rid of a cup or only allow teams that are not qualified for Europe; that would give other clubs the chance to win it too (Portsmouth and Wigan are the only not-CL playing teams that won in the past 10 years). For the League Cup Swansea and Birmingham are the odd ones). It probably won't be popular with the big clubs but it would be nice, I think.
The trouble between the UEFA and FA is indeed making things more difficult that's for sure.
Reply
There used to be a competition for the under 21s that was supposed to be a good bedding in for younger talent in clubs, and it was pretty immense and relatively democratic, and because my memory is a sieve nowadays I can't remember the name, but UEFA threw a strop and brought out lawyers so it had to be disregarded.
Once Platini got into UEFA, I think that's when things started to change I think. Platini is... difficult. What's with the English vs French bodies, eh? FA and FIFA would exist in a world without each other if they could.
Reply
There is now a new youth competition, the Youth League. The youth teams of the CL group participants play each other like in the group stage of the big competition. (which means off course, the big teams get in once again). After the group stage, it goes on in one-leg ties. It gets a bit of attention here because Anderlecht beat Bvb, Arsenal and Barcelona and are now in the quarters.
Reply
though the one funny note I saw: Chelsea losing to PSG is all a Conspiracy to keep Arsenal from their rightful (aka contractually obligated) qualification for UCL football hahaha.
Reply
You are right though, chemistry nowhere to be found. It's a shame because some players are better than
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