Transcript of Naomi Wolf vs Jaclyn Friedman: Feminists Debate the Sexual Allegations...
... against Julian Assange.
Trigger Warning for discussions of rape. I found doing the transcript amazingly upsetting.
The video is up on the DemocracyNow website. The embedding is not agreeing with me today.
Transcript is a bit rough. These women all talk in huge paragraphs.
Amy Goodman (AG):
Naomi Wolf (NW):
Jaclyn Friedman (JF):
AG: More details have emerged about the sex crime allegations that Wikileaks founder Julia Assange faces in Sweden. Assange was released on bail from a London prison Thursday. He is now under house arrest at a country mansion. His next hearing, set for January 11, will determine whether he'll be extradited to Sweden to face allegations of rape and sexual assault. On Friday, the Guardian newspaper obtained unathorized access to a Swedish police report that provides the first complete account of the allegations against Assange.
According to the Guardian, the allegations are based on a ten-day period in August when Assange was visiting Stockholm during which he had sexual relationships with two women that started out as consensual, but the women say they turned into assaults. The Guardian reports one woman told police that Assange pulled her clothes off and snapped her necklace. Then she said he held down her arms and legs and prevented her from grabbing a condom numerous times. After he let go and agreed to wear a condom she claims he did something to the condom to rip it.
Assange denied the allegations telling police he did not tear the condom and that the woman had allowed him to sleep in her bed for the following week. The other woman in the case told police Assange had sex with her while she was asleep without using a condom. On August 20 the women went to Stockholm police. They had not decdied whether to report Assange's behaviour as a crime, but the prosecutor on duty that night opened an investigation and issued an arrest warrant for Assange.
Assange and his supporters have said that the case against him is part of a wider conspiracy to discredit him because of his work with WikiLeaks. Speaking to reporters outside his friend's mansion in eastern England where he must live while on bail Assange said the allegations were part of a smear campaign.
Julian Assange: This has been a very successful smear campaign so far, but I think its days are numbered and people are starting to wonder, is what is claimed really true and, if it is true, where's the evidence? Why has no evidence been provided even to me and my defense attornies.
AG: Meanwhile, the laywer for the two women, Claes Borgstrom has denied the allegations are part of a political conspiracy.
Claes Borgstrom: Well, I think it's unfortunate for my two clients that they were molested in some way or another by a person like Julian Assange because what has happened afterwards is not that they were allowed a fair chance at this moment because they are sort of treated like the perpetrators themselves, like there is a conspiracy and all that nonsense. So it's very very unfortunate.
AG: The case against Assange has sparked international controversy as well as controversy within the feminist community. We're joined by two women right now. Jaclyn Friedman is executive director of Women, Action and the Media and the editor of the anthology "Yes Means Yes: Visions of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape", she's joining us from Boston. Naomi Wolf is a social critic, author of seven books including The Beauty Myth and The End of America. She's joining us here in New York. We welcome you both to Democracy Now. Jaclyn Friedman, as this information comes out, why don't you talk about your thoughts on the... we can't even say charges against Julian Assange because he has not yet been charged.
JF: We can say allegations. Certainly these women are alleging a crime. What I want to say is that these .. the details certainly have become more clear since that unathorized leak, but we've known those basic facts for weeks, in fact we've known them since august, that the allegations were that he held one woman down, that he raped another in her sleep, these allegations have been out there, the Guardian has been reporting them. Rape is a very serious crime, and it's also one of the most under-reported crimes across the globe, and one of the reasons is because every time the issue comes up in the media, people come out of the woodwork to blame the victims and minimize the crime. Unfortunately when we see someone who is a progressive hero like Assange is, those critics who are doing that minimization and that victim blaming often come from the left as well as the right, and we've seen that across the board. Unfortunately Naomi Wolf has participated in that, Michael Moore, Keith Oblermann, Glen Beck of course, plenty of people ont he right are participating as well.
And the result of that is not only are these women receiving death threats, they are in hiding, one of them has gone to Palestine because she didn't feel safe in Sweden anymore, but even more important result of that, when we perpetuate rape myths in the media - and this is not just my opinion, this has been documented by social research - is that victims, nameless victims, victims who have been harmed by people who are not famous become much more reluctant to take their experiences seriously, to report those expeirneces, the justice system that's supposed to work for those victims, the cops, the juries, the prosecturos, the judges, they become much more reluctant to take these allegations seriously when they are reported, and men become less likely to identify their own behaviours as sexually violent, and as a result all of that is that rapists go free. And what we know about that is that the majority of rapists are repeat rapists.
And so, the result of perpetuating these rape myths in the mass media is we literally are creating more rape in the world, and that's my main concern about the way these allegations have been discussed so far is that it's doing real harm to real women around the world who have nothing to do with this case.
AG: Naomi Wolf, your response.
NM: Thank you. Well, Jaclyn, let me say that I'm very very offended that you're suggesting I'm blaming the victim. In fact, it's because of my 23 years of supporting rape victims, working in rape crisis centers, travelling around the world to report more than any journalist I know which in a way I've been very blessed in that I've been able to do so, from Siera Leon to Bosnia, to Ireland and to the United Kingdom interviewing people who support rape victims and work with the legal system, it's because of that that I'm raising my voice about these very ambigious and corrupt allegations.
First of all, let me correct you, and Jaclyn, the Guardian account, which is based on leaked original documents, doesn't say that he had sex with either of these women without their consent. The reason I'm hearing from rape victims across the world who are emailing me saying "I'm a rape victim, thank you for standing up to put these charges in context" is that this is the only case I've ever seen in 23 years of supporting rape victims which is based on multiple instances of consent. If you read these allegations. He took off Miss A's clothes too quickly for her comfort, she tried to tell him to slow down but then, quote, "she allowed him to undress her." This is what the report says. The second woman says she woke to find him having sex with her. When she asked if he was wearing a condom she said no. Quote, "according to her statement she said you better not have HIV, he said of course not." Quote, "She couldn't be bothered to tell him one more time because she'd been going on about the condom all night. She'd never had unprotected sex before."
So if you're going to treat women as moral adults, and you're going to take the issue of rape seriously, the person whose engaging in what he thinks is consensual sex has to be told "I don't want this." And again, and again and again these women did not say "This is not consensual." Assange was shocked when these were brought up as complaints because he had no idea that this was not a consensual sitatuion. Miss A kept Assange in her home for the next four days and threw a party for him.
So because I take rape seriously, because I'm aware that in 23 years - you know, in Sweden, which has been critizised by Amnesty internation for disregarding rape, for letting rapists go free , because you have a better chance in Sweden if you're a rape victim of, you know, dying in an accident or getting breast cancer than having a serious rape accusation prosecuted or getting any kind of legal hearing according to Amnesty International's report, case closed, it's because of that that I know that these charges are utterly, utterly atypically handled. In 23 years I've never seen any man in any situation this ambiguous involving this much consent have any kind of legal process whatsoever. All over the world, women who've been gang-raped, brutally raped, raped in alley ways, pimped, prostituted, trafficked, their rapists go free, so yes, this stinks to me and yes its about politics, and it's about the same politics that dragged you, when you were trying to cover a march, violently in to legal jeopardy because really this is about a journalist who has angered the most powerful and increasibgly the most brutal nation on earth and it's about all of us who are journalists being dragged into a dangerous sitaution because of criticisms of the government.
AG: Ah, Jaclyn Friedman, your response.
JF: Wow. Uh... first of all, I've also been working with rape survivors for 20 years and I am one myself and I can assure you that you do not speak for me or many of us. I, too, have been speaking to rape survivors around the world since this case broke, who have been so hurt and disappointed that someone like you understands the danger of myths perpetuated in the media would be perpetuating rape myths that hurt all of us. There are so many rape survivors that are up in arms about the way this case has been discussed and the way these women have been disregarded.
NW: Jaclyn, Jaclyn, where did they say--
JF: No, no, I did not interupt you when you were speaking and I would appreciate if you don't--
NW: I beg your pardon.
JF: I'm going to get to that.
NW: Okay.
JF: Okay, so, I fully agree with you that the zeal, shall we say, by which these charges are being pursued is politically motivated. We have no disagreement on that. That is not an issue here. We are in agreement on that, I bet Amy agrees with us, too. But, if you want to talk about what the women in women Sweden want, you should look at their political actions. There's a massive twitter campaign that the women in Sweden in have launched called "Let's Talk About It."
NW: That's fair, let's talk about it.
JF: They are ... I'm talking about it right now. They're coming forward and saying "These things aren't taken seriously in Sweden and this is an ppprtutnity to prove the Swedish government can take these issues seriously. This is an opportunity to set the international bar higher for the way we take seriously rape charges. Now, let's talk about those charges. Those women did not consent. If she was consenting, he had no need to hold her down. A woman in her sleep cannot consent to sex. Consent is not a light switch. Just because you consented to one sexual activity, say, taking your clothes off with someone does not mean you consented to all sexual activities. That's perposterious.
AG: Naomi Wolf.
NW: -
Read the rest at troubleinchina journal
The video for the second part of this discussion can be found here Trigger warning for discussions of rape
Trigger Warning for discussions of rape. I found doing the transcript amazingly upsetting.
The video is up on the DemocracyNow website. The embedding is not agreeing with me today.
Transcript is a bit rough. These women all talk in huge paragraphs.
Amy Goodman (AG):
Naomi Wolf (NW):
Jaclyn Friedman (JF):
AG: More details have emerged about the sex crime allegations that Wikileaks founder Julia Assange faces in Sweden. Assange was released on bail from a London prison Thursday. He is now under house arrest at a country mansion. His next hearing, set for January 11, will determine whether he'll be extradited to Sweden to face allegations of rape and sexual assault. On Friday, the Guardian newspaper obtained unathorized access to a Swedish police report that provides the first complete account of the allegations against Assange.
According to the Guardian, the allegations are based on a ten-day period in August when Assange was visiting Stockholm during which he had sexual relationships with two women that started out as consensual, but the women say they turned into assaults. The Guardian reports one woman told police that Assange pulled her clothes off and snapped her necklace. Then she said he held down her arms and legs and prevented her from grabbing a condom numerous times. After he let go and agreed to wear a condom she claims he did something to the condom to rip it.
Assange denied the allegations telling police he did not tear the condom and that the woman had allowed him to sleep in her bed for the following week. The other woman in the case told police Assange had sex with her while she was asleep without using a condom. On August 20 the women went to Stockholm police. They had not decdied whether to report Assange's behaviour as a crime, but the prosecutor on duty that night opened an investigation and issued an arrest warrant for Assange.
Assange and his supporters have said that the case against him is part of a wider conspiracy to discredit him because of his work with WikiLeaks. Speaking to reporters outside his friend's mansion in eastern England where he must live while on bail Assange said the allegations were part of a smear campaign.
Julian Assange: This has been a very successful smear campaign so far, but I think its days are numbered and people are starting to wonder, is what is claimed really true and, if it is true, where's the evidence? Why has no evidence been provided even to me and my defense attornies.
AG: Meanwhile, the laywer for the two women, Claes Borgstrom has denied the allegations are part of a political conspiracy.
Claes Borgstrom: Well, I think it's unfortunate for my two clients that they were molested in some way or another by a person like Julian Assange because what has happened afterwards is not that they were allowed a fair chance at this moment because they are sort of treated like the perpetrators themselves, like there is a conspiracy and all that nonsense. So it's very very unfortunate.
AG: The case against Assange has sparked international controversy as well as controversy within the feminist community. We're joined by two women right now. Jaclyn Friedman is executive director of Women, Action and the Media and the editor of the anthology "Yes Means Yes: Visions of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape", she's joining us from Boston. Naomi Wolf is a social critic, author of seven books including The Beauty Myth and The End of America. She's joining us here in New York. We welcome you both to Democracy Now. Jaclyn Friedman, as this information comes out, why don't you talk about your thoughts on the... we can't even say charges against Julian Assange because he has not yet been charged.
JF: We can say allegations. Certainly these women are alleging a crime. What I want to say is that these .. the details certainly have become more clear since that unathorized leak, but we've known those basic facts for weeks, in fact we've known them since august, that the allegations were that he held one woman down, that he raped another in her sleep, these allegations have been out there, the Guardian has been reporting them. Rape is a very serious crime, and it's also one of the most under-reported crimes across the globe, and one of the reasons is because every time the issue comes up in the media, people come out of the woodwork to blame the victims and minimize the crime. Unfortunately when we see someone who is a progressive hero like Assange is, those critics who are doing that minimization and that victim blaming often come from the left as well as the right, and we've seen that across the board. Unfortunately Naomi Wolf has participated in that, Michael Moore, Keith Oblermann, Glen Beck of course, plenty of people ont he right are participating as well.
And the result of that is not only are these women receiving death threats, they are in hiding, one of them has gone to Palestine because she didn't feel safe in Sweden anymore, but even more important result of that, when we perpetuate rape myths in the media - and this is not just my opinion, this has been documented by social research - is that victims, nameless victims, victims who have been harmed by people who are not famous become much more reluctant to take their experiences seriously, to report those expeirneces, the justice system that's supposed to work for those victims, the cops, the juries, the prosecturos, the judges, they become much more reluctant to take these allegations seriously when they are reported, and men become less likely to identify their own behaviours as sexually violent, and as a result all of that is that rapists go free. And what we know about that is that the majority of rapists are repeat rapists.
And so, the result of perpetuating these rape myths in the mass media is we literally are creating more rape in the world, and that's my main concern about the way these allegations have been discussed so far is that it's doing real harm to real women around the world who have nothing to do with this case.
AG: Naomi Wolf, your response.
NM: Thank you. Well, Jaclyn, let me say that I'm very very offended that you're suggesting I'm blaming the victim. In fact, it's because of my 23 years of supporting rape victims, working in rape crisis centers, travelling around the world to report more than any journalist I know which in a way I've been very blessed in that I've been able to do so, from Siera Leon to Bosnia, to Ireland and to the United Kingdom interviewing people who support rape victims and work with the legal system, it's because of that that I'm raising my voice about these very ambigious and corrupt allegations.
First of all, let me correct you, and Jaclyn, the Guardian account, which is based on leaked original documents, doesn't say that he had sex with either of these women without their consent. The reason I'm hearing from rape victims across the world who are emailing me saying "I'm a rape victim, thank you for standing up to put these charges in context" is that this is the only case I've ever seen in 23 years of supporting rape victims which is based on multiple instances of consent. If you read these allegations. He took off Miss A's clothes too quickly for her comfort, she tried to tell him to slow down but then, quote, "she allowed him to undress her." This is what the report says. The second woman says she woke to find him having sex with her. When she asked if he was wearing a condom she said no. Quote, "according to her statement she said you better not have HIV, he said of course not." Quote, "She couldn't be bothered to tell him one more time because she'd been going on about the condom all night. She'd never had unprotected sex before."
So if you're going to treat women as moral adults, and you're going to take the issue of rape seriously, the person whose engaging in what he thinks is consensual sex has to be told "I don't want this." And again, and again and again these women did not say "This is not consensual." Assange was shocked when these were brought up as complaints because he had no idea that this was not a consensual sitatuion. Miss A kept Assange in her home for the next four days and threw a party for him.
So because I take rape seriously, because I'm aware that in 23 years - you know, in Sweden, which has been critizised by Amnesty internation for disregarding rape, for letting rapists go free , because you have a better chance in Sweden if you're a rape victim of, you know, dying in an accident or getting breast cancer than having a serious rape accusation prosecuted or getting any kind of legal hearing according to Amnesty International's report, case closed, it's because of that that I know that these charges are utterly, utterly atypically handled. In 23 years I've never seen any man in any situation this ambiguous involving this much consent have any kind of legal process whatsoever. All over the world, women who've been gang-raped, brutally raped, raped in alley ways, pimped, prostituted, trafficked, their rapists go free, so yes, this stinks to me and yes its about politics, and it's about the same politics that dragged you, when you were trying to cover a march, violently in to legal jeopardy because really this is about a journalist who has angered the most powerful and increasibgly the most brutal nation on earth and it's about all of us who are journalists being dragged into a dangerous sitaution because of criticisms of the government.
AG: Ah, Jaclyn Friedman, your response.
JF: Wow. Uh... first of all, I've also been working with rape survivors for 20 years and I am one myself and I can assure you that you do not speak for me or many of us. I, too, have been speaking to rape survivors around the world since this case broke, who have been so hurt and disappointed that someone like you understands the danger of myths perpetuated in the media would be perpetuating rape myths that hurt all of us. There are so many rape survivors that are up in arms about the way this case has been discussed and the way these women have been disregarded.
NW: Jaclyn, Jaclyn, where did they say--
JF: No, no, I did not interupt you when you were speaking and I would appreciate if you don't--
NW: I beg your pardon.
JF: I'm going to get to that.
NW: Okay.
JF: Okay, so, I fully agree with you that the zeal, shall we say, by which these charges are being pursued is politically motivated. We have no disagreement on that. That is not an issue here. We are in agreement on that, I bet Amy agrees with us, too. But, if you want to talk about what the women in women Sweden want, you should look at their political actions. There's a massive twitter campaign that the women in Sweden in have launched called "Let's Talk About It."
NW: That's fair, let's talk about it.
JF: They are ... I'm talking about it right now. They're coming forward and saying "These things aren't taken seriously in Sweden and this is an ppprtutnity to prove the Swedish government can take these issues seriously. This is an opportunity to set the international bar higher for the way we take seriously rape charges. Now, let's talk about those charges. Those women did not consent. If she was consenting, he had no need to hold her down. A woman in her sleep cannot consent to sex. Consent is not a light switch. Just because you consented to one sexual activity, say, taking your clothes off with someone does not mean you consented to all sexual activities. That's perposterious.
AG: Naomi Wolf.
NW: -
Read the rest at troubleinchina journal
The video for the second part of this discussion can be found here Trigger warning for discussions of rape