People Should Know

[onionsoupmix]

My friend from Israel is going through a very rough time. She recently left a terrible marriage, complete with mental and physical abuse.

She waited until she couldn't take it anymore, sold her jewelry, took her three children and moved out. Her husband refused to give her a get and also refused to get a job. After she left, she had to pay him

Comments

[ext_675596]

And what's the status of women in the non-Orthodox world?

Rape is common.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/

Beatings are common.

http://www.thehotline.org/get-educated/abuse-in-america/

Dead beat dads are common.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadbeat_parent#Child_support_arrears

(there are deadbeat moms too, however about 84% of custodial parents are female)

Anyhow, if the Orthodox world is so bad, why are you in it?

[onionsoupmix]

Rape and beatings and dead beat dads are considered serious problems and there are numerous laws and organizations dedicated to solving those particular societal ills.

In contrast, I don't recall any laws or organizations or measures in the frum world are dedicated to solving the problems of crazy and abusive botei dinim. Do you?

[ext_675596]

So in essence you prefer a society where lip service is paid to equality, yet women are often treated like dogs (you may not realize it, however American men, especially among themselves, often refer to women as "bitches"; not a coincidence), rather than a society where women are generally treated pretty well but are discriminated against officially to some degree?

Anyhow, to answer your question, I think all organizations in the frum world would be dedicated to solving the problems of crazy and abusive botei dinim, if there really were any.

[onionsoupmix]

I don't think lip service is paid to gender equality, a basic reading of history of the women's movements should disabuse any intelligent person of that notion.

And I certainly wouldn't call those who refer to women as bitches to be "men" and certainly not men that represent the vast majority of the secular society that I come into contact with. Maybe you should stop hanging around with the wrong crowd.

And why am I not surprised that you don't think there really are any crazy and abusive botei dinim?

[ext_675596]

"a basic reading of history of the women's movements should disabuse any intelligent person of that notion."

OK, you've won the vote, which probably makes little difference since the same narcissistic numskulls are elected anyway, while men continue to treat you like dogs.

"I certainly wouldn't call those who refer to women as bitches to be "men" "

Belonging to a gym, in a very nice area by the way, you hear a lot of stuff in locker room. Don't be naive.

"you don't think there really are any crazy and abusive botei dinim"

It's actually been my experience that Orthodox rabbis practice a sort of reverse discrimination when it comes to men. "Your wife screams all the time? Well of course, she's only a woman. You're the man. You've got to be strong. You've got to have patience. Suck it up."

[fetteredwolf]

Dude, I go to the gym and hear stuff in locker rooms and neither me nor my (non-Jewish, American, male) friends EVER refer to women as "bitches". Learn some respect.

[ext_675596]

Someone has to tell this author about that.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Love-Bitches-Relationship/dp/1580627560

Over one millions copies sold.

[fetteredwolf]

The author is a woman. Maybe she is reclaiming the word, like black people who call each other "niggah".

[ext_675596]

It's obviously a commonly used term, but not especially positive. And I haven't heard it ever used in Orthodox Jewish circles - even with all our supposed intense hatred of women according to Onion here.

[onionsoupmix]

I've heard the term in Orthodox circles, spoken by men.

[ext_675596]

It may be that you evoke particularly strong emotions.

[onionsoupmix]

In what way and to what extent do you think this comment contributed to the discussion?

[fetteredwolf]

I haven't ever heard it used in American, male, educated, decent-people circles. I've only heard it used on TV shows where the bad guy is abusing his wife or girlfriend- or I've heard women call other women "a bitch". So I disagree with you that it's commonly used. You should probably stop hanging out with disrespectful, inappropriate, vulgar men when you aren't hanging out with Orthodox Jews. It seems to be desensitizing you if you think that calling women "bitches" is common among American males.
Onionsoupmix isn't saying that Orthodox men, on a personal basis, hate women, but they do ascribe to a set of laws that does not treat women appropriately. I'm positive that just like you have women abusers, rapists, etc. in non-Orthodox society you have them in Orthodox society as well. It's unfortunately not unique. But these men do not portray either society as a whole. Otoh, the laws that the Batei Din uphold do portray Orthodox Jewish society in a particularly unflattering manner.

[onionsoupmix]

I don't understand how you can seriously compare what some moron in a locker room calls women to the attitude displayed by rabbninica authorities, the ones who have legal control and power over whether a woman receives a bill of divorce.

[ext_675596]

Beyond hearsay from one source, what evidence do you have of the attitude displayed by rabbninica authorities?

[onionsoupmix]

This attitude towards women seeking a get is well documented. Many articles, many books, many blog posts other than this one.