What Am I Missing? Seriously.

Aug 26, 2010 18:26


Here is link #1. It is about Lakewood Yeshivos in Crisis. This is the 2nd or 3rd school to shut down due to lack of funding.

Here is link #2. It is about how one single Lakewood  fundraising rally resulted in  $250,000.00 for Shalom Rubashkin's  attorneys.

How does this work? I don't get it. What am I missing?

tuition, rubashkin

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either way... anonymous August 29 2010, 03:52:50 UTC
1) If you not coming at it from the halachic perspective - and why would you? After all it's all a made-up game anyways! - then one can simply say that when people DONATE, they have the right to choose the object of their largess without having to worry that something else may also be a worthy cause, or even a more worthy cause. People give to whatever inspires THEM, and you can give to whatever inspires YOU.

2) If one was to think about it from the halachic perspective, then one would say that עניי עירך קודמים doesn't apply here, because giving money to a struggling chedr is not a life-sustaining necessity, but in Rubashkin's case you are literally talking about the man's very life!

Either way, what's your issue?

- cfkaMP

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Re: either way... onionsoupmix August 29 2010, 04:05:47 UTC
Of course people can give to what inspires them, I am just wondering why giving money to defend a felon is more inspiring than sustaining a school.

And why is saving SMR literally saving his life, again? Is he up for the death penalty?

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Re: either way... anonymous August 29 2010, 04:31:03 UTC
hmmm... 27 years in the slammer for a 51 yo man is as good as death, r"l. besides, he is not sitting in camp fed, his safety is at least in question.

As to the "defend a felon" bullshit: In case you haven't been exposed to this novel idea in Law School, here in the US, people have a right to appeal and to due process under the law. Their relatives and friends also have a complete right (and even a moral obligation) to assist them to the best of their ability. This is deemed so important that even our tax dollars go to pay for public defenders for murderers and rapists! (This while the homeless languish on the sidewalks and the elderly spend their food pennies on the unfordable drugs).

So basically you have trouble understanding why the cause of saving a life of a fellow Jew and a father of 10 (who was given a virtual life sentence for forging some invoices) inspire someone more than supporting one of the hundreds of struggling Jewish schools? Is that what's troubling you?

- cfkaMP

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Re: either way... onionsoupmix August 29 2010, 04:43:42 UTC
Did you ever stop and wonder why his attorneys aren't handling the appeal pro bono? Did you ever think that maybe this cause isn't quite all you think it is?

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Re: either way... anonymous August 29 2010, 05:25:22 UTC
great, changing the subject again...

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Re: either way... onionsoupmix August 29 2010, 05:28:48 UTC
It's the same subject. Rubashkin isn't deserving of giving up tons of money for him and even his attorneys know that.

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Re: either way... anonymous August 29 2010, 05:35:33 UTC
got it: the only way we know that someone's cause is just is if the attorneys work pro bono.

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Re: either way... onionsoupmix August 29 2010, 05:47:16 UTC
Honestly? How long does it take to do some research and write up a good appellate brief? A week? A few weeks? Take a month. Ok, take two months. For crying out loud, take a whole law school semester.

And how much are his lawyers getting for that? 250K from this one gathering in Lakewood alone? God knows how much more from Crown Heights. And his chances of winning on appeal? Anyone's chances on winning on appeal?

And in the mean time, schools are shutting down. But hey, I'm sure it's no big deal. Like you said, everyone has what inspires them. For some, it's education. For others it's paying for lawyers' new yachts.

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Re: either way... anonymous August 29 2010, 07:53:13 UTC
Your previous position was that Rubashkin in not deserving of help, NOT that it is a waste to give him $$$ because $$$ will not help him anyway.

And though the statistics of appeal success are not great, people still want to try to help...

As to lawyer 'new yachts', that is incredibly silly coming from a law student. They bill by the hour, and a case of this magnitude will take hundreds of hours of research and conferences, support staff hours, etc. Heck, even reviewing the trial documents properly will take hundreds of hours! All this is reported to the client, who, one would presume reviews all the bills. Do you know how quickly $250K is spent at, say, $600 per hour?

- cfkaMP

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Re: either way... onionsoupmix August 29 2010, 08:12:54 UTC
600 per hour is what partners at international corporate law firms charge. Not simple crim. defense.

And no, reading the transcript will not take hundreds of hours... unless, of course, you are billing by the hour and have the entire frum world throwing money at you. In that case, reading a trial transcript might ostensibly take weeks and months and maybe even years to fully read properly and comprehend in its entirety.

You do know that Nat has only two attorneys in his office, himself and his daughter, right?

You do know that law students actually write appellate briefs and spend their summers practicing law, right? That they know how much is reasonable to charge and how much time a case can take? At 250 per hour, which is not shabby, this one fundraiser paid for 6 months of full time work for this attorney. 6 months of doing nothing but SMR and his appeal. And that was one fundraiser in Lakewood.

But paying teachers and building maintenance for 6 months? Nah, that's just not as cool as helping a fellow yid.

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Re: either way... anonymous August 29 2010, 17:09:54 UTC
Again (and I bolded the main point for a reason), are you saying he is not deserving of help or that help is wasted?

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Re: either way... anonymous August 29 2010, 17:14:04 UTC
[parenthetically, I do not know where you get the $250 an hour number maybe that's what goes in the fly-over country, but in here NY for example, you don't get even a semi-decent criminal defense lawyer for under $400 and I am not talking about someone who has Supreme Court experience, just a decent local-level attorney.]

- cfkaMP

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Re: either way... bringing_peace September 16 2010, 14:45:05 UTC
so it's prison/freedom of one man vs. yes/no Torah education for many?

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