Entry - 11- Didn't forget to post
I didn't forget about my promise to post, just was waiting till I could muster enough to feel compelled to write (any suggestions to get around that mental cock-block?). Any how, everything has been going smooth so far. Thanks to my life and brownie coaches, I dropped my images and critique in public culture class and added colloquium so that I can start applying for jobs and have a bit more sanity (I already dropped two applications at the grocery stores - going to do the mall circuit this week and look into donating at the plasma center). Everything is going good with the boo, still love him and he still finds new ways to be adorable. Other than that, I wanted to post this week about this convo I had on Bruizr (a bear social networking site) about privacy and consent. It was taken from inspiration from a post made by Rax and my friend Nicky as well as Ducois. I am curious what you guys think about it.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony So i have been having multiple conversations with people about online gay communities and consent. They feel that in particular bear communities online most often turn into unsolicited sexual advances. Sure being exposed to nude pics or someone's sexual exploits is a purposeful/intentional caveat for a site like this, being messaged graphic sexual messages is not. Sure there is not direct physical harm in it, and the person can always just delete the message and ignore the sender, but what happened to the idea of consent to a sexual situation? Is consent implied by partaking in a community like this (or even at a bar) that the standard for initial engagement in conversation can be so overtly and forwardly graphic in sexual nature? I understand that some profiles explicitly look for that type of engagement (message me if you like to fuck etc) but others don't yet they are still being messaged "I want you to bounce on my balls" from a stranger. This isn't a judgment because I've been on both ends of this type of conversation, rather its a question I've been trying to figure out - is our goal in these types of communities to foster this type of interactions since they are minimally policed and even then your told to just expect it?
Eric -SKI I think it's partly human nature; we're sexual beings, and in that this is essentially gay male space, that nature comes out even more aggressively than elsewhere. I know I'm guilty of some strong flirtation here, which usually appears to be welcome. But I prefer initial interactions to be more along the lines of "hi" or at most "I think you're handsome/sexy." Start there and see if you can escalate it.
Unless the person posts something like "who wants to fuck me tonight?" If you're putting yourself out there like that... :)
I don't take any statements like the one you give too seriously, unless they're specifically proposing a time and/or place. (Like, "I want to you to bounce on my balls. Can I meet you this weekend?") I'd just laugh and say thanks -- or, reply "I'm not here to hook up, but thanks for the compliment."
Grrtigger (DAVE) sexuality is just one part of a person's overall personality and life. different people prioritize it differently, but i don't think just being on a site like this (or even making sexually explicit posts) necessarily equals a proposition or intent to solicit such. i think people should feel free to make whatever kinds of advances they like, but they shouldn't assume the answer will be "yes" or feel badly about if the answer is "no"
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony @both you guys - Thanks for commenting :)
@Eric - i agree, I think having a space for gay male sexuality (one that nurtures is as a healthy and guilt free) is useful and by no means do I think that should be halted. I agree that I to like to start with a mild flirtation (your so cute) before I go into how I want to spread their ass cheeks. And I too take it in a flattering way and just brush it off. But there are some people who don't feel comfortable being told that by complete strangers. I think of it as this, would you be comfortable if someone walked up to you on the street and just said that to you. Some would find it hot, some would find it creepy. Even worse (better?) if they just whip out their dick ( or the online equiv sending pics of yourself). Some would find the lack of expectation of that thrilling but others wouldn't. More so they may not like that they did not have a choice to be involved in it or not. That's where my gripe is.
@Grr - mostly what I said to eric esp the last part, but as i said, i think it was made clear that people can and will post sexually explicit photos or messages on the main stream and so that was an upfront agreement to the people who joined, But being messaged by individuals such graphic messages isn't (though it is "understood"). That's where the issue arises, should it just be assumed that you are going to be messaged things you don't want to hear whether you like it or not?
Grrtigger (DAVE) i think in a community like this one you should be prepared for people to express themselves in a variety of ways :p
Grrtigger (DAVE) unless you mean someone persisting after it's clear you're not interested / available. "no, thanks" means "no, thanks" :)
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony well, its a hard predicament, because on the one hand you don't want to be a censor and limit gay male sexual speech because its rare when we are able to say it and feel safe but on the other hand, i think its dangerous to assume that everyone can/should just get over it. The persisting is an obvious no-no (and sadly that happens often as well) but just the fact that someone can put - looking for friends/date or are in a monogamous relationship and have no nudes or inclination in their profile that they'd want your nudes or share their, I don't see how it should still be ok that they get messaged sexually graphic material
Eric -SKI I would be flattered if someone said it in person. Whipping it out, *or* sending an unsolicited photo via private message? No, and I don't think people should do it here either.
Of course, some people don't get social niceties, and the more people you have in any "community" the more likely you are to get these.
Unfortunately, with these social sites, many people assume you're there for the same reason they are -- and they don't bother checking to find out what you want before approaching you.
I guess it's rough to say "you just have to deal with it," but that's unfortunately the way it is.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony I would flattered if someone saw me on the street or subway and said I was cute. I would not be flattered if they told me they want to fuck me senseless. But i think that's a choice on the person. The pictures are a definite no no.
Your last points is kind of where I am asking - is there/should there be an a statement or policiing function built into the site or maintained by the users that regulate these unsolicited gestures. Like should be a little button or check box when filling out your profile that states (likes sexy messages/ don't like/ see what you say etc). and that in the policy of the site when you sign up, you have to agree that mailing a person a message that is overtly sexual when the person says they do not want to be (and are then reported) can some action? or am I thinking too 1984 about this lol
Eric -SKI I think because it's so personal on both ends, trying to put forth some kind of policing statement would be tough. I don't think it would be too 1984 but it would be hard to enforce and difficult for some people to buy into in the first place. I like sexy messages on some level; how to make it clear what that level is? Especially when that level depends on how well I know someone?
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony I guess this is not to limit who people can contact, but actually make more people feel comfortable with being on these sites at all. I have plenty of friend who resist coming on these sites at all because they get bombarded with sex messages that make them uncomfortable. I think regulating that a bit will curb the (its the way it is ) attitude, and still foster a community that has sexual freedom. and plus, if someone leaves a site because they can't say they want to slap their balls on someone's face to a random stranger who says they don't want to hear it - are we really losing a productive member?
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony I was thinking you can have varying options or even a portion that you can type in that the person reads before they message you - like a pop up that says " hey my name is X and blah blah blah i enjoy this, and don't enjoy that" or it can be like " im x and say whatever the fuck you want to me" and that's cool too. It will definitely help with the issue of people not reading profiles. im sure it will take some programming magic but it doesn't seem impossible. And again, if most or all don't really care - they can put - say whatever - and its done.
Eric -SKI I think "1984" wasn't the right word -- I think you're being too "Nanny". (Not as in the TV show, but as in "Nanny government.") If these people are adults, then they should be able to say "I don't appreciate those messages, please don't message me again."
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony but to feel like you have to say that to multiple strangers often? this is kind of goes back to my original query - should this site tacitly condone this type o f behavior by not saying or doing anything about it? I mean, putting a brief statement option about personal messaging preferences doesn't seem too overbearing (i know okcupid has something similar) while at the same time it is not prohibiting that language in total - you can speak dirty to people who say you can). I think it is again a matter of consent.
Eric -SKI OK, I don't think that staying silent on the matter is "condoning" it. I don't think they should do anything. Let people be adults about it and manage themselves accordingly.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony I guess its a agree to disagree - I understand seeing something happen and not doing anything about it as a form of tacit acceptance - especially when there is a clear capability to do something about it. And i mean right now, I got told about my friend (on this site) being told how horny the person was and how they want to meet to fuck or do something - even though they have a boyfriend and are clear they only want friends.
Eric -SKI So, you were asking but had your own ideas and didn't want to hear another point of view?
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony So does asking a question mean you don' t have your opinion? and I've been forming my perception as I've talked here and to my friends, and you haven't given me a better alternative. I appreciate your input, but I don't agree with it because the logic doesn't work for me. If you want to piecemeal my argument and show me where i am failing, then I am open ears.
Eric -SKI I tried several times to say what I thought, but you seemed to not be accepting my thoughts. I agree that we're going to have to "agree to disagree" here. I just really don't understand what you were trying to do by asking this question.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony Sorry if I was being off putting ( my language can get kind of harsh without my knowing). The point of asking is to see if anyone else think this is a matter worth bringing up, what are the implications of consent in an online forum, and are there ways of managing communication without censoring it. From what I gathered (which could be wrong) is that you think that putting a policy is too overbearing - nanny - and that it would be tough ,and inevitably it should be a matter of adults should be adults and deal with it. That is obviously a rough recap, but for the most part I didn't agree because I don't think its too overbearing a policy, and in fact would make people feel more comfortable but will some degree deter others. I guess the larger goal of asking these questions (or seeing if these questions are worth asking) is going to help expand both the community and the usefullness of the community to gay men.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony plus i think it is useful to not try to get either party to agree but rather meet each other in the middle.
Eric -SKI That's essentially it. I don't think such a policy will actually deter anything; people inclined to do that are not generally inclined to read and remember the policy, and other people (some very good people) will be turned off by the whiff of censorship.
Of course, that's just my opinion, and others may feel otherwise.
Eric -SKI As for meeting it the middle -- my sense of your responses was not one of trying to meet in the middle, but rather repetitive insistence that you are right. Perhaps that's not fair, and perhaps my responses seemed the same to you (though I was thinking it all through as we added these comments, that is I didn't have a fully formed opinion at the beginning so my thinking did change). But that's how I felt.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony well i think it was more of a policy included with a function to add a message that pops up or something before the person is messaged that says - i do/don't appreciate these types of messages. And if they get unwarranted responses, the user can report it as harassment or whatever. I mean this is a half cocked idea and why i think should def be discussed with people who feel turned off by the censorship.
I think my tone got more aggressively firm because i felt you were basically firm on the side of laisez faire (cant spell sorry lol) and let things sort themselves out. I think being too "it is what it is" is a problematic point of view to some extent because i don't think it fosters growth. I am not saying i have it right, because fuck i could be completely wrong, but i think there is something there. Sorry if i seemed stubborn (blame being a taurus lol)
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony So i have been having multiple conversations with people about online gay communities and consent. They feel that in particular bear communities online most often turn into unsolicited sexual advances. Sure being exposed to nude pics or someone's sexual exploits is a purposeful/intentional caveat for a site like this, being messaged graphic sexual messages is not. Sure there is not direct physical harm in it, and the person can always just delete the message and ignore the sender, but what happened to the idea of consent to a sexual situation? Is consent implied by partaking in a community like this (or even at a bar) that the standard for initial engagement in conversation can be so overtly and forwardly graphic in sexual nature? I understand that some profiles explicitly look for that type of engagement (message me if you like to fuck etc) but others don't yet they are still being messaged "I want you to bounce on my balls" from a stranger. This isn't a judgment because I've been on both ends of this type of conversation, rather its a question I've been trying to figure out - is our goal in these types of communities to foster this type of interactions since they are minimally policed and even then your told to just expect it?
Eric -SKI I think it's partly human nature; we're sexual beings, and in that this is essentially gay male space, that nature comes out even more aggressively than elsewhere. I know I'm guilty of some strong flirtation here, which usually appears to be welcome. But I prefer initial interactions to be more along the lines of "hi" or at most "I think you're handsome/sexy." Start there and see if you can escalate it.
Unless the person posts something like "who wants to fuck me tonight?" If you're putting yourself out there like that... :)
I don't take any statements like the one you give too seriously, unless they're specifically proposing a time and/or place. (Like, "I want to you to bounce on my balls. Can I meet you this weekend?") I'd just laugh and say thanks -- or, reply "I'm not here to hook up, but thanks for the compliment."
Grrtigger (DAVE) sexuality is just one part of a person's overall personality and life. different people prioritize it differently, but i don't think just being on a site like this (or even making sexually explicit posts) necessarily equals a proposition or intent to solicit such. i think people should feel free to make whatever kinds of advances they like, but they shouldn't assume the answer will be "yes" or feel badly about if the answer is "no"
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony @both you guys - Thanks for commenting :)
@Eric - i agree, I think having a space for gay male sexuality (one that nurtures is as a healthy and guilt free) is useful and by no means do I think that should be halted. I agree that I to like to start with a mild flirtation (your so cute) before I go into how I want to spread their ass cheeks. And I too take it in a flattering way and just brush it off. But there are some people who don't feel comfortable being told that by complete strangers. I think of it as this, would you be comfortable if someone walked up to you on the street and just said that to you. Some would find it hot, some would find it creepy. Even worse (better?) if they just whip out their dick ( or the online equiv sending pics of yourself). Some would find the lack of expectation of that thrilling but others wouldn't. More so they may not like that they did not have a choice to be involved in it or not. That's where my gripe is.
@Grr - mostly what I said to eric esp the last part, but as i said, i think it was made clear that people can and will post sexually explicit photos or messages on the main stream and so that was an upfront agreement to the people who joined, But being messaged by individuals such graphic messages isn't (though it is "understood"). That's where the issue arises, should it just be assumed that you are going to be messaged things you don't want to hear whether you like it or not?
Grrtigger (DAVE) i think in a community like this one you should be prepared for people to express themselves in a variety of ways :p
Grrtigger (DAVE) unless you mean someone persisting after it's clear you're not interested / available. "no, thanks" means "no, thanks" :)
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony well, its a hard predicament, because on the one hand you don't want to be a censor and limit gay male sexual speech because its rare when we are able to say it and feel safe but on the other hand, i think its dangerous to assume that everyone can/should just get over it. The persisting is an obvious no-no (and sadly that happens often as well) but just the fact that someone can put - looking for friends/date or are in a monogamous relationship and have no nudes or inclination in their profile that they'd want your nudes or share their, I don't see how it should still be ok that they get messaged sexually graphic material
Eric -SKI I would be flattered if someone said it in person. Whipping it out, *or* sending an unsolicited photo via private message? No, and I don't think people should do it here either.
Of course, some people don't get social niceties, and the more people you have in any "community" the more likely you are to get these.
Unfortunately, with these social sites, many people assume you're there for the same reason they are -- and they don't bother checking to find out what you want before approaching you.
I guess it's rough to say "you just have to deal with it," but that's unfortunately the way it is.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony I would flattered if someone saw me on the street or subway and said I was cute. I would not be flattered if they told me they want to fuck me senseless. But i think that's a choice on the person. The pictures are a definite no no.
Your last points is kind of where I am asking - is there/should there be an a statement or policiing function built into the site or maintained by the users that regulate these unsolicited gestures. Like should be a little button or check box when filling out your profile that states (likes sexy messages/ don't like/ see what you say etc). and that in the policy of the site when you sign up, you have to agree that mailing a person a message that is overtly sexual when the person says they do not want to be (and are then reported) can some action? or am I thinking too 1984 about this lol
Eric -SKI I think because it's so personal on both ends, trying to put forth some kind of policing statement would be tough. I don't think it would be too 1984 but it would be hard to enforce and difficult for some people to buy into in the first place. I like sexy messages on some level; how to make it clear what that level is? Especially when that level depends on how well I know someone?
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony I guess this is not to limit who people can contact, but actually make more people feel comfortable with being on these sites at all. I have plenty of friend who resist coming on these sites at all because they get bombarded with sex messages that make them uncomfortable. I think regulating that a bit will curb the (its the way it is ) attitude, and still foster a community that has sexual freedom. and plus, if someone leaves a site because they can't say they want to slap their balls on someone's face to a random stranger who says they don't want to hear it - are we really losing a productive member?
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony I was thinking you can have varying options or even a portion that you can type in that the person reads before they message you - like a pop up that says " hey my name is X and blah blah blah i enjoy this, and don't enjoy that" or it can be like " im x and say whatever the fuck you want to me" and that's cool too. It will definitely help with the issue of people not reading profiles. im sure it will take some programming magic but it doesn't seem impossible. And again, if most or all don't really care - they can put - say whatever - and its done.
Eric -SKI I think "1984" wasn't the right word -- I think you're being too "Nanny". (Not as in the TV show, but as in "Nanny government.") If these people are adults, then they should be able to say "I don't appreciate those messages, please don't message me again."
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony but to feel like you have to say that to multiple strangers often? this is kind of goes back to my original query - should this site tacitly condone this type o f behavior by not saying or doing anything about it? I mean, putting a brief statement option about personal messaging preferences doesn't seem too overbearing (i know okcupid has something similar) while at the same time it is not prohibiting that language in total - you can speak dirty to people who say you can). I think it is again a matter of consent.
Eric -SKI OK, I don't think that staying silent on the matter is "condoning" it. I don't think they should do anything. Let people be adults about it and manage themselves accordingly.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony I guess its a agree to disagree - I understand seeing something happen and not doing anything about it as a form of tacit acceptance - especially when there is a clear capability to do something about it. And i mean right now, I got told about my friend (on this site) being told how horny the person was and how they want to meet to fuck or do something - even though they have a boyfriend and are clear they only want friends.
Eric -SKI So, you were asking but had your own ideas and didn't want to hear another point of view?
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony So does asking a question mean you don' t have your opinion? and I've been forming my perception as I've talked here and to my friends, and you haven't given me a better alternative. I appreciate your input, but I don't agree with it because the logic doesn't work for me. If you want to piecemeal my argument and show me where i am failing, then I am open ears.
Eric -SKI I tried several times to say what I thought, but you seemed to not be accepting my thoughts. I agree that we're going to have to "agree to disagree" here. I just really don't understand what you were trying to do by asking this question.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony Sorry if I was being off putting ( my language can get kind of harsh without my knowing). The point of asking is to see if anyone else think this is a matter worth bringing up, what are the implications of consent in an online forum, and are there ways of managing communication without censoring it. From what I gathered (which could be wrong) is that you think that putting a policy is too overbearing - nanny - and that it would be tough ,and inevitably it should be a matter of adults should be adults and deal with it. That is obviously a rough recap, but for the most part I didn't agree because I don't think its too overbearing a policy, and in fact would make people feel more comfortable but will some degree deter others. I guess the larger goal of asking these questions (or seeing if these questions are worth asking) is going to help expand both the community and the usefullness of the community to gay men.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony plus i think it is useful to not try to get either party to agree but rather meet each other in the middle.
Eric -SKI That's essentially it. I don't think such a policy will actually deter anything; people inclined to do that are not generally inclined to read and remember the policy, and other people (some very good people) will be turned off by the whiff of censorship.
Of course, that's just my opinion, and others may feel otherwise.
Eric -SKI As for meeting it the middle -- my sense of your responses was not one of trying to meet in the middle, but rather repetitive insistence that you are right. Perhaps that's not fair, and perhaps my responses seemed the same to you (though I was thinking it all through as we added these comments, that is I didn't have a fully formed opinion at the beginning so my thinking did change). But that's how I felt.
Mark "MOnkey Bear" Anthony well i think it was more of a policy included with a function to add a message that pops up or something before the person is messaged that says - i do/don't appreciate these types of messages. And if they get unwarranted responses, the user can report it as harassment or whatever. I mean this is a half cocked idea and why i think should def be discussed with people who feel turned off by the censorship.
I think my tone got more aggressively firm because i felt you were basically firm on the side of laisez faire (cant spell sorry lol) and let things sort themselves out. I think being too "it is what it is" is a problematic point of view to some extent because i don't think it fosters growth. I am not saying i have it right, because fuck i could be completely wrong, but i think there is something there. Sorry if i seemed stubborn (blame being a taurus lol)