Well the Thracians were not Greek and had their own customs and a different pantheon than the Greek (or the Romans for that matter) and the "Dionysus Bassareus" in is most likely a native deity identified with Dionysus through Interpretatio Graeca based on Ridgeway's quoting of Macrobius' discription of the Cult (in much the same way the Romans reported that the Celts were worshiping Mercury, Mars, Dis, Jupiter, et alii through Interpretatio Romana of Celtic deities).
Other sources also report that the fox was holy among the Thracians (such as in discussing the cult of Bendis - who's cult was imported to Athens as "Artemis Bendis").
Most discussion of Bassareus I've seen more or less just reports "Bassareus" as a epitaph of Dionysus (and sometimes mentioning Thrace). I've had trouble finding much about Thracian religion in English (I did find one small book on Thracian religion in OSU's Library but it was in Bulgarian) and there seems to be an assumption that the Dionysus in Thrace was identical with that of Greece (based the idea that Dionysus might have originally been Thracian based on Myths which have him coming from Thrace - other myths have him coming into Greece from Asia Minor - Personally, I think the "out of Thrace" idea is most likely bunk based on Ridgeway's Report of Macrobius who describes something very different from the Greek Dionysus and the fact that Dionysus appears in Mycenean tablets which makes Dionysus an rather early deity in the Greek Pantheon).
but this Bassasereus guy sounds more like the male Inari than the greek god.
Actually it sounds more like "Grandpa Hu" from China upon which the common male form of Inari was probably based (to speak secularly).
And I'm definitely learning something new everyday. You sound like a professional, do you do this for a living?
I'll admit, I'm only a high school girl. I don't know much about anything outside Europe, because my school's ancient lit classes really focused on Greece and Rome, unfortunately (after hearing nothing but those myths for so many years, I've gotten quite tired of them). Which is why I never knew about Grandpa Hu that you mentioned.
Though it does make sense that they would interpret other deities through there own, because they wouldn't of had any other "standard" to compare them with. I'm just wondering if that also means they may have absorbed each other's ideas over time, if they lived near enough to be able to observe one another. Though if the Thracians DID (hypothetically) get influence from the older Dionysus, but then twisted them to make it their own god, why would it be wrong to say he didn't come out of Thrace? Dionysus is claimed as a greek god, but even he might have been influenced from elsewhere.
I am enjoying this conversation by the way, it's making me get excited again about history and culture.
And I'm definitely learning something new everyday. You sound like a professional, do you do this for a living?
I work at a Target store as a Cashier. =P
Heh, I just graduated a quarter ago (With a Bachelor's in Anthropology and a Certificate of Study in East Asian Studies) and I'm taking a year off to test the waters before potentially heading to grad school.
I'm just wondering if that also means they may have absorbed each other's ideas over time, if they lived near enough to be able to observe one another.
They did - The celts on the continent became fairly Romanised while still maintaining their deities such as Belenus (-Apollo) but now in Romanised was such as temples with Roman style Priests replacing the Druids. And Ridgeway in his articles suggests that Dionysus got associated with foxes through the Thracian Bassareus.
Though if the Thracians DID (hypothetically) get influence from the older Dionysus, but then twisted them to make it their own god, why would it be wrong to say he didn't come out of Thrace?
Personally, I think they got it from the same origin of Grandpa Hu and Inari via the Russian steppes which form a highway of cultural transition of which the Thracians were on the Western End of (and they share iconographic styles and ideas with cultures that streach all the way to the Amur river valley (just north of Manchuria).
The Greeks & Romans seeing as a more ecstatic cult with connections to agriculture then connected to Dionysus who has similar connections. That's my pet hypothesis anyways based on the data that is available to me.
But to get to your scenario, I don't understand what your saying - if the Thracians modified the Greek Dionysus he could not have come out of Thrace because his origins would be in Greece and not as a imported deity into Greece (as for instance the cult of Bendis in Athens).
I am enjoying this conversation by the way, it's making me get excited again about history and culture.
Oh we actually have something in common! Though I'm in a grocery store. More food XD I figured you had something with anthropology, from all these tags that I see on the right side of your journal. Ton of cultural connections there, and archeology as well.
""But to get to your scenario, I don't understand what your saying - if the Thracians modified the Greek Dionysus he could not have come out of Thrace because his origins would be in Greece and not as a imported deity into Greece (as for instance the cult of Bendis in Athens)."
He as in Bassa, not Dionysus. Sorry about that. What I was thinking was like this: say I looked at other people's art and saw some style traits I liked, so I decided to copy that. But, I don't copy it all, just those few traits (like a certain color scheme or a certain way the eyes are drawn), and incorporated those traits into my own stuff. Mix it all together, and something semi-new is created! That's what I was thinking, that some traits of Dionysus were taken by the Thracians and mixed into their own preferences to make a new god. Now through THAT line of thinking, I figured that it wouldn't be wrong for the Thracians to claim that god came out of their land, if they were the ones that mixed the different ideas together to make that new god (Am I making sense? The art analogy was the best I could come up with ^^; )
"Personally, I think they got it from the same origin of Grandpa Hu and Inari via the Russian steppes which form a highway of cultural transition of which the Thracians were on the Western End of (and they share iconographic styles and ideas with cultures that streach all the way to the Amur river valley (just north of Manchuria)."
But that part makes more sense geographic and description-wise than what I was thinking before with Dionysus, especially when you said Bassa was like an old man. Dionysus is far from that from the myths I've read.
That's what I was thinking, that some traits of Dionysus were taken by the Thracians and mixed into their own preferences to make a new god. Now through THAT line of thinking, I figured that it wouldn't be wrong for the Thracians to claim that god came out of their land, if they were the ones that mixed the different ideas together to make that new god (Am I making sense? The art analogy was the best I could come up with ^^; )
I don't think the Thracians claimed that - it was the Greeks in a myth who had him come into Greece through one of several areas (after he descended to Earth - if I recall correctly ) depending on the myth.
Don't ask me - one hypothesis I'd seen was that the Ecstatic nature of the cult was so beyond the norm that they might have thought it came from elsewhere but then again it could just be part of the story of the myth and not meant to explain Dionysus' origins.
Other sources also report that the fox was holy among the Thracians (such as in discussing the cult of Bendis - who's cult was imported to Athens as "Artemis Bendis").
Most discussion of Bassareus I've seen more or less just reports "Bassareus" as a epitaph of Dionysus (and sometimes mentioning Thrace). I've had trouble finding much about Thracian religion in English (I did find one small book on Thracian religion in OSU's Library but it was in Bulgarian) and there seems to be an assumption that the Dionysus in Thrace was identical with that of Greece (based the idea that Dionysus might have originally been Thracian based on Myths which have him coming from Thrace - other myths have him coming into Greece from Asia Minor - Personally, I think the "out of Thrace" idea is most likely bunk based on Ridgeway's Report of Macrobius who describes something very different from the Greek Dionysus and the fact that Dionysus appears in Mycenean tablets which makes Dionysus an rather early deity in the Greek Pantheon).
but this Bassasereus guy sounds more like the male Inari than the greek god.
Actually it sounds more like "Grandpa Hu" from China upon which the common male form of Inari was probably based (to speak secularly).
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I'll admit, I'm only a high school girl. I don't know much about anything outside Europe, because my school's ancient lit classes really focused on Greece and Rome, unfortunately (after hearing nothing but those myths for so many years, I've gotten quite tired of them). Which is why I never knew about Grandpa Hu that you mentioned.
Though it does make sense that they would interpret other deities through there own, because they wouldn't of had any other "standard" to compare them with. I'm just wondering if that also means they may have absorbed each other's ideas over time, if they lived near enough to be able to observe one another. Though if the Thracians DID (hypothetically) get influence from the older Dionysus, but then twisted them to make it their own god, why would it be wrong to say he didn't come out of Thrace? Dionysus is claimed as a greek god, but even he might have been influenced from elsewhere.
I am enjoying this conversation by the way, it's making me get excited again about history and culture.
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I work at a Target store as a Cashier. =P
Heh, I just graduated a quarter ago (With a Bachelor's in Anthropology and a Certificate of Study in East Asian Studies) and I'm taking a year off to test the waters before potentially heading to grad school.
I'm just wondering if that also means they may have absorbed each other's ideas over time, if they lived near enough to be able to observe one another.
They did - The celts on the continent became fairly Romanised while still maintaining their deities such as Belenus (-Apollo) but now in Romanised was such as temples with Roman style Priests replacing the Druids. And Ridgeway in his articles suggests that Dionysus got associated with foxes through the Thracian Bassareus.
Though if the Thracians DID (hypothetically) get influence from the older Dionysus, but then twisted them to make it their own god, why would it be wrong to say he didn't come out of Thrace?
Personally, I think they got it from the same origin of Grandpa Hu and Inari via the Russian steppes which form a highway of cultural transition of which the Thracians were on the Western End of (and they share iconographic styles and ideas with cultures that streach all the way to the Amur river valley (just north of Manchuria).
The Greeks & Romans seeing as a more ecstatic cult with connections to agriculture then connected to Dionysus who has similar connections. That's my pet hypothesis anyways based on the data that is available to me.
But to get to your scenario, I don't understand what your saying - if the Thracians modified the Greek Dionysus he could not have come out of Thrace because his origins would be in Greece and not as a imported deity into Greece (as for instance the cult of Bendis in Athens).
I am enjoying this conversation by the way, it's making me get excited again about history and culture.
Same here. =P
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Oh we actually have something in common! Though I'm in a grocery store. More food XD
I figured you had something with anthropology, from all these tags that I see on the right side of your journal. Ton of cultural connections there, and archeology as well.
""But to get to your scenario, I don't understand what your saying - if the Thracians modified the Greek Dionysus he could not have come out of Thrace because his origins would be in Greece and not as a imported deity into Greece (as for instance the cult of Bendis in Athens)."
He as in Bassa, not Dionysus. Sorry about that. What I was thinking was like this: say I looked at other people's art and saw some style traits I liked, so I decided to copy that. But, I don't copy it all, just those few traits (like a certain color scheme or a certain way the eyes are drawn), and incorporated those traits into my own stuff. Mix it all together, and something semi-new is created! That's what I was thinking, that some traits of Dionysus were taken by the Thracians and mixed into their own preferences to make a new god. Now through THAT line of thinking, I figured that it wouldn't be wrong for the Thracians to claim that god came out of their land, if they were the ones that mixed the different ideas together to make that new god (Am I making sense? The art analogy was the best I could come up with ^^; )
"Personally, I think they got it from the same origin of Grandpa Hu and Inari via the Russian steppes which form a highway of cultural transition of which the Thracians were on the Western End of (and they share iconographic styles and ideas with cultures that streach all the way to the Amur river valley (just north of Manchuria)."
But that part makes more sense geographic and description-wise than what I was thinking before with Dionysus, especially when you said Bassa was like an old man. Dionysus is far from that from the myths I've read.
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I don't think the Thracians claimed that - it was the Greeks in a myth who had him come into Greece through one of several areas (after he descended to Earth - if I recall correctly ) depending on the myth.
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