Theological Notebook: Benedict XVI continues argument with EU on Identity

[novak]

It is one of the more peculiar traits of today's Secularism that the renouncing of our own cultural heritage is seen as a prerequisite to being "accepting" or "tolerant" of other cultural identities, particularly where "religion" is concerned. Ironically, this often manifests itself as a more-or-less anti-European attitude as a kind of reaction of

Comments

[nimoloth]

There is a difference, however, in remembering and recognising the effect of Christianity on Europe, and in remaining Christian as a whole. There is no reason that European legislation should now be based on Christian values (although they are good values, and are upheld in some respects anyway). Nor should we require to be Christian in order to have a common identity. It is something that has been very significant in the past, but is falling away now.

[novak]

I entirely agree that there's no logic in any "requirement" to be Christian - Christianity has always repudiated such thinking in its teaching, even if you've had a few people who've tried to pull such off - but I do wonder whether the thought that "There is no reason that European legislation should now be based on Christian values" really follows. The repudiation of Christianity by Europe's intelligentsia (whether intellectually defensible or not, today) was a huge movement of the 19th-29th century, but leaves open the question of whether one can keep the generally Christian ethics the EU wants to enshrine without the Christian metaphysics underlying it. Can the effect live without the cause?

[nimoloth]

the question of whether one can keep the generally Christian ethics the EU wants to enshrine without the Christian metaphysics underlying it. Can the effect live without the cause?

Certainly - there is no need to be inherently Christian to have morals.

Although I'm sure a Christian may not agree that the atheists morals are as good as theirs, particularly regarding subjects such as abortion, divorce, homosexuality, etc. A large proportion of Europeans (I don't know how many of course) will agree that the Christian view on matters such as these is dated and no longer relevant to their society.

I do believe that Church must be separate from State (in particular, legislation) in today's Europe, which is becoming more and more multi-cultural, as well as more and more secular. The European government cannot apply uniquely Christian values to it's vastly diverse population.

[novak]

Oh, I definitely didn't mean to imply that what I was talking about was a Church-State alliance or union of the type that characterized the Medieval world, nor did I say it was necessary to be Christian to have morals, although historically speaking, secular European morals are inherited from Christian ethics and thus required a Christian formation in order to get where they are today. While it was perfectly sensible and organic for that to have happened with people foisting political authority on the Church as the only organization whose leadership was standing after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, the conflicts of interest (for the Church) have lead the leadership of the Church to forswear such confusion of roles. The Church is aware that it is far more effective without political power, even politically. It's political influence wants to remain that of persuasion. So, no, that's not at all what I'm talking about here

[cerulianphoenix]

I still don't quite grasp why the European Union would try to deny the existence of Christianity in their past. One would think they would at least acknowledge it. This boggles my mind. I'm glad to see that there are people in Europe fighting for recognition of Europe's Christian history.

[nimoloth]

They're not denying it - they're just moving away from it being all-pervasive and central to government, as many believe is correct, i.e. the separation of Church and State, especially in today's far more secular Europe. The past is past, and the present is changing. We have much more in common than just a Christian past.

[cerulianphoenix]

From what I understand, which could be terribly flawed mind you, is that the European Union has neglected any recollection at all of Europe's Christian past. Recently I've started to discover just how indebted Europe is to it's Christian past, so not even to acknowledge it is something of a surprise for me.

Mind you, I'm not well versed in the European Union and such so I could be way off. If I am, I apologise for wasting everybodies time.

[nimoloth]

Well, I don't know any specifics - are there any actual occasions or instances of actual denial? I'm not sure how an entity such as the EU could deny or confirm something anyway. Do they mean that it is not mentioned in histories of the development of the EU?

In any case, I haven't picked up on any particular denial - it's simply not an issue in the everyday.