My view on this is a bit complicated. For a number of different reasons. And please read the whole post before getting pissed, since I may say some things that you intensely disagree with.
First I think that while one's own uprbringing is what you inherently have to judge against, it's ridiculous to compare the way you are brought up with other people. I was mostly well behaved as a kid, but only because I was literally terrified of my father. This is not a model of child rearing that I approve of. It left me with serious problems, especially involving conflict resolution for which I had to go to therapy for.
The reason I think that judging solely by one's own experiences isn't usefull in the long run is that kids are individuals. Things that worked for diciplining my brothers failed utterly for me, and vice versa. I mean, it's not like kids are drones who suddenly become individual people when they become teenagers, they are always different. I've had the opportunity both to watch children interact in social settings, and hear about it from adults who work with or teach kids, and what all but the most idealistically retarded has concluded is that watching kids in social situations is just like watching adults. You've got a bunch of individuals who are doing their damndest to get what they want however they know they can get away with it. And some are way more inventive than others. I saw a lot of this when my mom did daycare until I was ten years old.
Every time you freaked out about kids, I got a little pissed off. Because you don't have kids. As an authority on child rearing, you're like a backseat driver yelling instructions at someone who's just gotten behind the wheel for the first time. Everyone I've ever talked to about child-rearing, including both good and bad parents all agree that the change in values, in priorities, in lifestyle is so completely different from the life they lived before that not only was there no way they could have foreseen it, there wasn't really a context through which they could even explain it to other people. I'm not saying don't get angry at the retarded yelling kid, I'm saying that in responding consider that your frame of reference is very limited in this respect.
The basic thing I read or hear every time that you complain about kids is an opinion that seems to suggest that the kids are an extension of the adults. As if the adults have direct control over their actions at all times and any negligence of their ability to control their behavior is inexcusable. And yet you yourself have admitted to being a precocious child. There have been stories you've told me about your own childhood where if I said some of the things you did, I would have wound up getting it when we got home.
I know for a fact that there were times when I was angry enough at my parents enough that'd I'd do things I wasn't supposed to anyway, cause, fuck them for having had that power over me. I even tried to (abortively) run away three or four times, but I never made it more than five or six blocks, then I got scared because I didn't recognized the neighborhood. And sometimes my parents were just too damn tired from working/taking care of other kids/drunk/etc. to be able to do anything about however I had decided to act up.
That being said (and got off my chest after years of thinking it but being affraid to say it) I agree, if the dad was like that it sounds like the kid was out of control. And the dad an asshole. Jesus, for most kids all you have to do is tell the kids they are only allowed to come in a restaurant if they are well behaved and they'll muster for it.
And on the complimenting the parents. Go for it. I know I just mentioned not judging solely by one's own experiences, but here I'll break my own rule. My parents got complimented all the time for my brothers and my behavior at restaurants, and it acted not only as a compliment for my parents, but also encouraged good behavior from me and my brothers in subsequent restaurant trips. Even if it wouldn't work for every kid, it'd be worth a shot, and would probably make those good parents feel good, cuz you know, they probably have a hell of a time getting their kids to behave that well.
I agree that terror is a bad child-rearing strategy. And I do agree that there are limits to judging by one's own up-bringing, but my general beef is that I think people should have the sense to either keep their kids from misbehaving, or take them out of the place.
Kids are going to act up, I get that, but the appropriate action isn't ignoring it, it's pro-actively doing something. What the right thing is will vary by kid, of course. Give them consequences, is what I mean. They're not extensions of adults, but they also don't know any better and have to be instructed as to what behavior is right in what circumstances. Running around and yelling in the restaurant is not appropriate, even at a very casual restaurant, and I don't think it's too much to ask that kids either be well-behaved or leave.
Parents don't have complete control over their kids, but they should at least be aware of what their kids are going to be like in various situations and adjust the places they take them for that. I mean, if we're at the zoo and the kid is running around yelling: okay, it's the zoo. Or a water park or the pool or something...but in a restaurant or movie theatre? Not the right time for that, and if your kids can't handle it don't take them until they can. I guess I'm not trying to make a point about technique so much as giving actions consequences and making clear that somethings are okay sometimes and not others.
There have been stories you've told me about your own childhood where if I said some of the things you did, I would have wound up getting it when we got home.
Yeah, and I did sometimes. I don't really remember the getting it, except in vague flashes of being spanked or otherwise punished.
Well, the simple explanation is that non-coersion by force or authority is not really possible with kids because they don't have the moral/intellectual grounding to choose for themselves, which is why it is up to parents to choose for them. Presents problems, philosophically, because children aren't really free moral agents.
Sorry, I didn't really mean to get on my high horse, but somehow I found myself up there, and then after I posted that I noticed there were only clouds around for company. It's been a long week, with some intense ups and downs. And I was just reminded that this weekend is my brother's birthday, so I don't really get this weekend for myself either.
I was actually thinking about deleting my comment when I clicked down and saw you responded. I thought about things and realized there were moments when you seemed really short tempered with kids, which was more what this was a response too, but that the circumstances which you describe here are actually pretty justified.
That said, thanks for responding so reasonably. Man though. Swearing around kids, while it shouldn't be a thing since they hear it anyways, is. After all, we live in a country where saying "fuck" more than twice in a movie gets you an R, but you can show an awful lot of skin and violence. That guy was an ass, but unfortunately he's not alone :(
Besides, how else is his kid going to learn that you're supposed to swear when bad shit happens; that's what swearing is for!
As for "getting it." It wasn't always being spanked in my parents house. But the fact that I was leads me to believe it was somehow the source for that becoming a sexual thing for me. And once I was okay with it, it was fine. But I repressed it for so long that it became this giant shadow over my whole life. So I have some definite resentment about that. I wonder if I would have felt such guilt over a shoe fetish or something. Eh, probably but in a different way.
Of the punishments I got, the ones I actually thought were the most effective were time-outs. Not being able to move at all from a chair facing a wall. That was the hardest punishment, and it lasted ten minutes but seemed like hours.
But the worst though, was anything that involved my Dad. Because he was so volatile I just didn't know what was going to happen. And not knowing if he was going to flip out or just seeth for days (like 3 days in a row) was worse than anything my parents ever actually did as a punishment.
First I think that while one's own uprbringing is what you inherently have to judge against, it's ridiculous to compare the way you are brought up with other people. I was mostly well behaved as a kid, but only because I was literally terrified of my father. This is not a model of child rearing that I approve of. It left me with serious problems, especially involving conflict resolution for which I had to go to therapy for.
The reason I think that judging solely by one's own experiences isn't usefull in the long run is that kids are individuals. Things that worked for diciplining my brothers failed utterly for me, and vice versa. I mean, it's not like kids are drones who suddenly become individual people when they become teenagers, they are always different. I've had the opportunity both to watch children interact in social settings, and hear about it from adults who work with or teach kids, and what all but the most idealistically retarded has concluded is that watching kids in social situations is just like watching adults. You've got a bunch of individuals who are doing their damndest to get what they want however they know they can get away with it. And some are way more inventive than others. I saw a lot of this when my mom did daycare until I was ten years old.
Every time you freaked out about kids, I got a little pissed off. Because you don't have kids. As an authority on child rearing, you're like a backseat driver yelling instructions at someone who's just gotten behind the wheel for the first time. Everyone I've ever talked to about child-rearing, including both good and bad parents all agree that the change in values, in priorities, in lifestyle is so completely different from the life they lived before that not only was there no way they could have foreseen it, there wasn't really a context through which they could even explain it to other people. I'm not saying don't get angry at the retarded yelling kid, I'm saying that in responding consider that your frame of reference is very limited in this respect.
The basic thing I read or hear every time that you complain about kids is an opinion that seems to suggest that the kids are an extension of the adults. As if the adults have direct control over their actions at all times and any negligence of their ability to control their behavior is inexcusable. And yet you yourself have admitted to being a precocious child. There have been stories you've told me about your own childhood where if I said some of the things you did, I would have wound up getting it when we got home.
I know for a fact that there were times when I was angry enough at my parents enough that'd I'd do things I wasn't supposed to anyway, cause, fuck them for having had that power over me. I even tried to (abortively) run away three or four times, but I never made it more than five or six blocks, then I got scared because I didn't recognized the neighborhood. And sometimes my parents were just too damn tired from working/taking care of other kids/drunk/etc. to be able to do anything about however I had decided to act up.
That being said (and got off my chest after years of thinking it but being affraid to say it) I agree, if the dad was like that it sounds like the kid was out of control. And the dad an asshole. Jesus, for most kids all you have to do is tell the kids they are only allowed to come in a restaurant if they are well behaved and they'll muster for it.
And on the complimenting the parents. Go for it. I know I just mentioned not judging solely by one's own experiences, but here I'll break my own rule. My parents got complimented all the time for my brothers and my behavior at restaurants, and it acted not only as a compliment for my parents, but also encouraged good behavior from me and my brothers in subsequent restaurant trips. Even if it wouldn't work for every kid, it'd be worth a shot, and would probably make those good parents feel good, cuz you know, they probably have a hell of a time getting their kids to behave that well.
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Kids are going to act up, I get that, but the appropriate action isn't ignoring it, it's pro-actively doing something. What the right thing is will vary by kid, of course. Give them consequences, is what I mean. They're not extensions of adults, but they also don't know any better and have to be instructed as to what behavior is right in what circumstances. Running around and yelling in the restaurant is not appropriate, even at a very casual restaurant, and I don't think it's too much to ask that kids either be well-behaved or leave.
Parents don't have complete control over their kids, but they should at least be aware of what their kids are going to be like in various situations and adjust the places they take them for that. I mean, if we're at the zoo and the kid is running around yelling: okay, it's the zoo. Or a water park or the pool or something...but in a restaurant or movie theatre? Not the right time for that, and if your kids can't handle it don't take them until they can. I guess I'm not trying to make a point about technique so much as giving actions consequences and making clear that somethings are okay sometimes and not others.
There have been stories you've told me about your own childhood where if I said some of the things you did, I would have wound up getting it when we got home.
Yeah, and I did sometimes. I don't really remember the getting it, except in vague flashes of being spanked or otherwise punished.
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I was actually thinking about deleting my comment when I clicked down and saw you responded. I thought about things and realized there were moments when you seemed really short tempered with kids, which was more what this was a response too, but that the circumstances which you describe here are actually pretty justified.
That said, thanks for responding so reasonably. Man though. Swearing around kids, while it shouldn't be a thing since they hear it anyways, is. After all, we live in a country where saying "fuck" more than twice in a movie gets you an R, but you can show an awful lot of skin and violence. That guy was an ass, but unfortunately he's not alone :(
Besides, how else is his kid going to learn that you're supposed to swear when bad shit happens; that's what swearing is for!
As for "getting it." It wasn't always being spanked in my parents house. But the fact that I was leads me to believe it was somehow the source for that becoming a sexual thing for me. And once I was okay with it, it was fine. But I repressed it for so long that it became this giant shadow over my whole life. So I have some definite resentment about that. I wonder if I would have felt such guilt over a shoe fetish or something. Eh, probably but in a different way.
Of the punishments I got, the ones I actually thought were the most effective were time-outs. Not being able to move at all from a chair facing a wall. That was the hardest punishment, and it lasted ten minutes but seemed like hours.
But the worst though, was anything that involved my Dad. Because he was so volatile I just didn't know what was going to happen. And not knowing if he was going to flip out or just seeth for days (like 3 days in a row) was worse than anything my parents ever actually did as a punishment.
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