The Great Midnight Dance (nee. Camarilla) Elder Debate - 2011 Edition
This is my attempt to organize my thoughts on various threads about the Elder population in the Midnight Dance (nee. Camarilla) sanctioned LARP chronicle. This may get long and may not make sense to those who do not know how things work here. You have been warned.
I haven't been participating in the entire debate but there are a lot of things sticking out to me when looking at some of the alternate suggestions for dealing with Elder overpopulation in our chronicle. The main thing I rallied against last night was a Universal drop 2 generations. Why should we do more damage to our chronicle than is absolutely necessary? Doing this during this chronicle will indeed alienate a lot of the newer players which is exactly part of the issue we are trying to resolve here. Even High MC players have commented on the difficulty in getting full immersion in the chronicle. This is not a "fair" solution. And even then, it's only a temporary solution. Everything that has been suggested is temporary. I don't think there is a possibility of a permanent fix like some people are claiming. To claim that lowering everyone's generation trait is immature at best. Someone always gets screwed with decisions like these, why should we spread it even further than is necessary?
Another item is that instead of capping it to 1 Elder PC per Player across all of Masquerade, we cap it to one Elder per venue (taking into consideration that Independent Sect VSSes are going to be phased out). This essentially doesn't do much at all to the Elder population as it stands. If your worry is that Sabbat will be too Elder heavy and the Camarilla have next to nothing, there has to be another way to keep it all balanced.
Also there's the issue that one ST said about the possibility of being voted out is an issue when it comes to approving character concepts. This should *never* be something that is considered when you want to maintain game balance. If your players vote you out just because you wouldn't approve their uber-awesome Elder PC because it would unbalance the game, why would you want to continue serving as an ST anyway? I wouldn't even want to play with this kind of group and I just got out of that situation so I have a huge aversion to people using their votes as leverage to play the PC concept as is. Offer alternatives, make suggestions for a rewrite that might take a lower social class into account. Ask them what it is that makes them want to play an Elder. If they say the powers, you might want to sit down and mentor them on what it truly is to be an Elder. I know I didn't understand how being an Ancilla was different from even being a Neonate until one of my non-Cam friends and even members of my domain helped me learn about it.
I think a lot of this stems from the seeming view of self-entitlement. Sure, I'm feeling that way at the moment, however we have to think of what's good for new player recruitment AND retention as well as what's good for us. We also don't want to alienate the mid-MC people. I'm not high MC but I feel passionately about this club. I enjoy playing with the vast majority of people in this club. I've learned so much from everyone I've even just chatted to on IRC. I'm thankful for all of this. I am thankful for David Bounds letting us even be heard. However we should not bounce to the least drastic or the most drastic... Especially if the latter is based on perceived fairness. No decision like this is ever fair and that's something we need to acknowledge. Also, regardless of whether you are High, Mid, or Low MC... There is only so much you can ask someone to sacrifice due to story. Sure, I know a lot of high MC people who would gladly get rid of one of their Elder PCs for the good of the game, at the same time, I'm sure there are plenty who aren't as willing. It's human nature. We need to think of this more as a "Why should I sacrifice something?" and turn it into, "What is the postive impact vs. the negative impact to our Chronicle?" Throw out the idea of "fair". Throw out your self-entitlement (myself included). Let's make this decision because of what is truly best for our Chronicle.
ADDITION:
> Well a clan head is the one that rases neonate to ancille and ancille to elder so all youd need to do is get your one to owe you a boon or offer one or ..... yeah sooo easypeasy.
> nothing can possably go wrong.
>
Actually that would take a pretty hefty boon. Also according to the Protocols of the Camarilla they cannot elevate an Ancilla to Elder. It also says that it is usually in response to a Neonate who has clearly displayed their ability to be amongst those who keep the Camarilla running.
Clan Heads have one other unique ability that mirrors a Kindred's release into society at large. A Clan Head may, by spending a permanent Status Trait to elevate a Neonate to Ancillae regardless of how long they have been a Kindred. This is usually in response to a Neonate who has clearly displayed their ability to be amongst those who keep the Camarilla running. It should be said, however, that Neonates elevated in this fashion that prove themselves unable to handle their new status not only find themselves the object of scandal, but the Clan Head that elevated them does as well.
Even if they could elevate Ancillae to Elders, how does that solve the massive drop is social demographic that will occur? That should be a massive punishment and if that happens it won't be solved by a Clan Head owing you a boon because there are inherent risks in that. Notice that the raising of a Neonate to Ancilla also carries with it the threat of Scandal. It would have to be a hefty boon to warrant that.
Not impossible, but I don't see it happening often enough to mitigate the massive loss in status that would result from the Generation drop.
The boon game isn't one that's supposed to make things so easy. You have to be careful who you're dealing with and depending on what boons are on the table depends on what kind of favor would be done. If a Clan Head is giving out or owing boons so easily, I would question in a heartbeat why they're Clan Head in the first place if the boon was registered with the Harpy. The Clan Head is supposed to be the political maneuverer and while owing boons is something to be done strategically... This would HAVE to be worth their while. I cannot stress that enough.
Also just because a soft reset happened recently does not make a major paradigm shift the best option for the Masquerade chronicle. The soft reset was done with no illusions to the reasoning. It wasn't done to restrict one population, it was done to level the playing field in nWoD which is quite acceptable there. Masquerade should not be a level playing field so why is lowering the power level for everyone the solution? It literally knocks me down on my current characters to what an MC1 can currently play and I'm MC6. Despite only being MC6, I've been in the club for almost 6 years. I don't like being used as a pawn in fairness so let's not kid ourselves. The issue here isn't High MC players... It's the number of Elders that have been brought into Masquerade as a whole.
Thank you,
Rachel Steiner
US2005043355
I haven't been participating in the entire debate but there are a lot of things sticking out to me when looking at some of the alternate suggestions for dealing with Elder overpopulation in our chronicle. The main thing I rallied against last night was a Universal drop 2 generations. Why should we do more damage to our chronicle than is absolutely necessary? Doing this during this chronicle will indeed alienate a lot of the newer players which is exactly part of the issue we are trying to resolve here. Even High MC players have commented on the difficulty in getting full immersion in the chronicle. This is not a "fair" solution. And even then, it's only a temporary solution. Everything that has been suggested is temporary. I don't think there is a possibility of a permanent fix like some people are claiming. To claim that lowering everyone's generation trait is immature at best. Someone always gets screwed with decisions like these, why should we spread it even further than is necessary?
Another item is that instead of capping it to 1 Elder PC per Player across all of Masquerade, we cap it to one Elder per venue (taking into consideration that Independent Sect VSSes are going to be phased out). This essentially doesn't do much at all to the Elder population as it stands. If your worry is that Sabbat will be too Elder heavy and the Camarilla have next to nothing, there has to be another way to keep it all balanced.
Also there's the issue that one ST said about the possibility of being voted out is an issue when it comes to approving character concepts. This should *never* be something that is considered when you want to maintain game balance. If your players vote you out just because you wouldn't approve their uber-awesome Elder PC because it would unbalance the game, why would you want to continue serving as an ST anyway? I wouldn't even want to play with this kind of group and I just got out of that situation so I have a huge aversion to people using their votes as leverage to play the PC concept as is. Offer alternatives, make suggestions for a rewrite that might take a lower social class into account. Ask them what it is that makes them want to play an Elder. If they say the powers, you might want to sit down and mentor them on what it truly is to be an Elder. I know I didn't understand how being an Ancilla was different from even being a Neonate until one of my non-Cam friends and even members of my domain helped me learn about it.
I think a lot of this stems from the seeming view of self-entitlement. Sure, I'm feeling that way at the moment, however we have to think of what's good for new player recruitment AND retention as well as what's good for us. We also don't want to alienate the mid-MC people. I'm not high MC but I feel passionately about this club. I enjoy playing with the vast majority of people in this club. I've learned so much from everyone I've even just chatted to on IRC. I'm thankful for all of this. I am thankful for David Bounds letting us even be heard. However we should not bounce to the least drastic or the most drastic... Especially if the latter is based on perceived fairness. No decision like this is ever fair and that's something we need to acknowledge. Also, regardless of whether you are High, Mid, or Low MC... There is only so much you can ask someone to sacrifice due to story. Sure, I know a lot of high MC people who would gladly get rid of one of their Elder PCs for the good of the game, at the same time, I'm sure there are plenty who aren't as willing. It's human nature. We need to think of this more as a "Why should I sacrifice something?" and turn it into, "What is the postive impact vs. the negative impact to our Chronicle?" Throw out the idea of "fair". Throw out your self-entitlement (myself included). Let's make this decision because of what is truly best for our Chronicle.
ADDITION:
> Well a clan head is the one that rases neonate to ancille and ancille to elder so all youd need to do is get your one to owe you a boon or offer one or ..... yeah sooo easypeasy.
> nothing can possably go wrong.
>
Actually that would take a pretty hefty boon. Also according to the Protocols of the Camarilla they cannot elevate an Ancilla to Elder. It also says that it is usually in response to a Neonate who has clearly displayed their ability to be amongst those who keep the Camarilla running.
Clan Heads have one other unique ability that mirrors a Kindred's release into society at large. A Clan Head may, by spending a permanent Status Trait to elevate a Neonate to Ancillae regardless of how long they have been a Kindred. This is usually in response to a Neonate who has clearly displayed their ability to be amongst those who keep the Camarilla running. It should be said, however, that Neonates elevated in this fashion that prove themselves unable to handle their new status not only find themselves the object of scandal, but the Clan Head that elevated them does as well.
Even if they could elevate Ancillae to Elders, how does that solve the massive drop is social demographic that will occur? That should be a massive punishment and if that happens it won't be solved by a Clan Head owing you a boon because there are inherent risks in that. Notice that the raising of a Neonate to Ancilla also carries with it the threat of Scandal. It would have to be a hefty boon to warrant that.
Not impossible, but I don't see it happening often enough to mitigate the massive loss in status that would result from the Generation drop.
The boon game isn't one that's supposed to make things so easy. You have to be careful who you're dealing with and depending on what boons are on the table depends on what kind of favor would be done. If a Clan Head is giving out or owing boons so easily, I would question in a heartbeat why they're Clan Head in the first place if the boon was registered with the Harpy. The Clan Head is supposed to be the political maneuverer and while owing boons is something to be done strategically... This would HAVE to be worth their while. I cannot stress that enough.
Also just because a soft reset happened recently does not make a major paradigm shift the best option for the Masquerade chronicle. The soft reset was done with no illusions to the reasoning. It wasn't done to restrict one population, it was done to level the playing field in nWoD which is quite acceptable there. Masquerade should not be a level playing field so why is lowering the power level for everyone the solution? It literally knocks me down on my current characters to what an MC1 can currently play and I'm MC6. Despite only being MC6, I've been in the club for almost 6 years. I don't like being used as a pawn in fairness so let's not kid ourselves. The issue here isn't High MC players... It's the number of Elders that have been brought into Masquerade as a whole.
Thank you,
Rachel Steiner
US2005043355