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nonduality
Nonduality for the masses -- on national talk radio!
Hi everyone,
My friend Jerry Katz of Nonduality.com was recently interviewed by Rollye James on the Coast to Coast AM North American talk radio show about his book One: Essential Teachings on Nonduality (amazon.com | amazon.ca) and about nonduality in general. As a result of his interview (his first public interview on the topic, and in this case to potentially more than a million listeners!), Jerry has been giving some thought to how best to present the concept of nonduality to a broader audience. To that end, he posted one of the questions Rollye asked him to the Nonduality Salon (the first major online forum dedicated to contemporary nonduality) to see what responses people would come up with. I felt that one thread in particular deserved excerpting here.
The following conversation highlights the strange dichotomy inherent to discussing nonduality. From one perspective -- the radical perspective -- nonduality is just nothingness and there is nothing to speak about regarding it. But on the level of action -- i.e. the apparent physical world in which we live with our apparent physical personalities -- there is certainly lots to discuss regarding nonduality. It's in the spirit of the latter perspective that Jerry asked these questions. And it's kind of only in the spirit of the latter perspective that one could have a radio interview about nonduality, too.
(Incidentally, if exploring the religious aspects of nonduality appeals to you, reading Jerry's book will give you an excellent overview of the nondual aspects of the major world religions.)
Jodi responds to the question:
> "Is there any quick way I can turn to the nondual just to get some
> comfort, like a quick fix? Or is nonduality an all or nothing way of
> looking at the world?"
Yes, to both questions.
Nonduality, in its final form, is all or nothing. Commonly, nothing. Even further, it's something that can't be said.
In the meantime, it's worth exploring the all. Anytime we step back and look at the broader picture - find a new perspective - doing so lends a certain amount of peace. The direction to go depends on the individual.
If you have a religious background, the literature and traditional practices of the more nondual branch of your religion can offer a new perspective and provide much comfort in trying times. As a start, look for the branch of your religion that concentrates on oneness, union, enlightenment, or awakening. If you have a secular background, the ideas of oneness found in pantheism, deep ecology, evolutionary biology, and other areas of thought may provide, as a beginning, a startling and helpful new perspective. Or perhaps you're more interested in exploring the writings and teachings of some of the nonduality-oriented popular self-help/spirituality authors. Nonreligious practices might include things like awareness of the now and activism done from a oneness standpoint.
Comfort is . . . comfortable, though. And nonduality can also induce fear, not to mention extreme frustration. Don't stop, don't settle. In addition, it's easy to get stuck on the journey by assuming you've gone as far as you can go, prematurely. Keep an open mind about what you discover or experience.
> "Is there any advantage to taking the journey to nonduality part of
> the way? What would that look like?"
In my experience, there's great advantage in taking the journey part of the way. The journey can include personal changes that are healing or protective. In addition, there are good reasons that people most often don't just jump - or aren't just taken - straight from first hearing of nonduality to disappearance. Nonduality offers a new understanding or experience that includes much that can be unsettling, and it may take time to come to terms with something new. What would such a partial journey look like? It would look like any of the religious or secular paths mentioned above. Or it may be something completely unique. There are many people exploring nonduality; you'll be in good company.
---------------------
Jerry responds to Jodi:
Thanks, Jodi. I like the responses. It's totally not nondual to talk about achieving peace, finding quick fixes, and taking partial journeys. But it is nondual to bring a gift of nonduality to people who are new to it. It's like bringing wine to dinner. It's acceptable. It's not necessary to require people to start growing vineyards. At the same time, for those who are ready to hear it, you are saying to keep pursuing nonduality and not stop anywhere. Which is like keeping the vineyards option open.
------------------------------
Jodi responds to Jerry:
General comments:
Although I wrote the answers to target a large, general audience, and to not immediately alienate the majority of the people but rather to find things they could relate to, I do wonder sometimes, about the wine, and the vineyards.
I could almost have written the opposite: No, there is no way to turn to the nondual for a quick fix of comfort. Yes, nonduality is all or nothing - case closed. Therefore, there is no such thing as partial nonduality, or for that matter, a journey. In fact, there is no such thing as nonduality.
No individuality, no oneness, no not-two-ness. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Nothingness: the living action.
For those of us who went through a very long period of searching, in a way it's inauthentic to recommend simply and directly growing a vineyard. We don't, from our own experience, know if that recommendation/teaching is effective. In addition to trying to find things a general audience could relate to, that's the other reason I wrote as I did.
It almost feels like a knowledge of wine, and experience with choosing and storing wine, and how to serve it and with what, and experience with its effects, and knowledge of the similarities and differences between wine and other alcoholic beverages, are necessary. They're necessary to cause the frustration of spending years and years studying and learning and struggling with all these things and still finding that none of this makes a vineyard appear. It's a frustration that grows until eventually it makes you give up wine, the idea of a vineyard, and in the process, perhaps, yourself - a frustration that brings you to an edge you never would otherwise have had the courage to step up to, and pushes you over, so that you end up not only with nothing, but as nothing. And then, there is simply: vines growing, sun shining. Maybe, maybe that whole long process is essential to growing a vineyard. In this case, spiritual
paths - gradualness - can be supported and recommended.
And yet, there's another way in which it feels like all those distractions simply create an extra layer of problems, personal and societal. So why even *consider* putting someone else through all that frustration - why not just recommend growing a vineyard? Who knows if long years of searching and frustration are helpful and necessary. The person to whom that happened has nothing else to compare with from experience. In addition, the comfort (or pride, or power, or safety, etc.) of being heavily involved in wine connoisseurship often waylays people.
Are the people who are serially distracted by (and often serially stuck in) all those aspects of wine really any more likely to grow a vineyard than those to whom someone simply says, as Eric and many do, "Grow a vineyard"? The amount of people who become involved in wine appreciation will be much larger than the amount of people who are open to simply and directly growing a vineyard. All sorts of things hold people back from the latter. But as far as actual effectiveness of each approach, I don't think the answer is known.
So here are two contrasted options. And perhaps there are more; for instance, there is also the very real pull of this option: saying nothing. In which case, perhaps, to paraphrase yosy's recent post about Hanuman, Your life is your message.
Jodi
My friend Jerry Katz of Nonduality.com was recently interviewed by Rollye James on the Coast to Coast AM North American talk radio show about his book One: Essential Teachings on Nonduality (amazon.com | amazon.ca) and about nonduality in general. As a result of his interview (his first public interview on the topic, and in this case to potentially more than a million listeners!), Jerry has been giving some thought to how best to present the concept of nonduality to a broader audience. To that end, he posted one of the questions Rollye asked him to the Nonduality Salon (the first major online forum dedicated to contemporary nonduality) to see what responses people would come up with. I felt that one thread in particular deserved excerpting here.
The following conversation highlights the strange dichotomy inherent to discussing nonduality. From one perspective -- the radical perspective -- nonduality is just nothingness and there is nothing to speak about regarding it. But on the level of action -- i.e. the apparent physical world in which we live with our apparent physical personalities -- there is certainly lots to discuss regarding nonduality. It's in the spirit of the latter perspective that Jerry asked these questions. And it's kind of only in the spirit of the latter perspective that one could have a radio interview about nonduality, too.
(Incidentally, if exploring the religious aspects of nonduality appeals to you, reading Jerry's book will give you an excellent overview of the nondual aspects of the major world religions.)
Jodi responds to the question:
> "Is there any quick way I can turn to the nondual just to get some
> comfort, like a quick fix? Or is nonduality an all or nothing way of
> looking at the world?"
Yes, to both questions.
Nonduality, in its final form, is all or nothing. Commonly, nothing. Even further, it's something that can't be said.
In the meantime, it's worth exploring the all. Anytime we step back and look at the broader picture - find a new perspective - doing so lends a certain amount of peace. The direction to go depends on the individual.
If you have a religious background, the literature and traditional practices of the more nondual branch of your religion can offer a new perspective and provide much comfort in trying times. As a start, look for the branch of your religion that concentrates on oneness, union, enlightenment, or awakening. If you have a secular background, the ideas of oneness found in pantheism, deep ecology, evolutionary biology, and other areas of thought may provide, as a beginning, a startling and helpful new perspective. Or perhaps you're more interested in exploring the writings and teachings of some of the nonduality-oriented popular self-help/spirituality authors. Nonreligious practices might include things like awareness of the now and activism done from a oneness standpoint.
Comfort is . . . comfortable, though. And nonduality can also induce fear, not to mention extreme frustration. Don't stop, don't settle. In addition, it's easy to get stuck on the journey by assuming you've gone as far as you can go, prematurely. Keep an open mind about what you discover or experience.
> "Is there any advantage to taking the journey to nonduality part of
> the way? What would that look like?"
In my experience, there's great advantage in taking the journey part of the way. The journey can include personal changes that are healing or protective. In addition, there are good reasons that people most often don't just jump - or aren't just taken - straight from first hearing of nonduality to disappearance. Nonduality offers a new understanding or experience that includes much that can be unsettling, and it may take time to come to terms with something new. What would such a partial journey look like? It would look like any of the religious or secular paths mentioned above. Or it may be something completely unique. There are many people exploring nonduality; you'll be in good company.
---------------------
Jerry responds to Jodi:
Thanks, Jodi. I like the responses. It's totally not nondual to talk about achieving peace, finding quick fixes, and taking partial journeys. But it is nondual to bring a gift of nonduality to people who are new to it. It's like bringing wine to dinner. It's acceptable. It's not necessary to require people to start growing vineyards. At the same time, for those who are ready to hear it, you are saying to keep pursuing nonduality and not stop anywhere. Which is like keeping the vineyards option open.
------------------------------
Jodi responds to Jerry:
General comments:
Although I wrote the answers to target a large, general audience, and to not immediately alienate the majority of the people but rather to find things they could relate to, I do wonder sometimes, about the wine, and the vineyards.
I could almost have written the opposite: No, there is no way to turn to the nondual for a quick fix of comfort. Yes, nonduality is all or nothing - case closed. Therefore, there is no such thing as partial nonduality, or for that matter, a journey. In fact, there is no such thing as nonduality.
No individuality, no oneness, no not-two-ness. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Nothingness: the living action.
For those of us who went through a very long period of searching, in a way it's inauthentic to recommend simply and directly growing a vineyard. We don't, from our own experience, know if that recommendation/teaching is effective. In addition to trying to find things a general audience could relate to, that's the other reason I wrote as I did.
It almost feels like a knowledge of wine, and experience with choosing and storing wine, and how to serve it and with what, and experience with its effects, and knowledge of the similarities and differences between wine and other alcoholic beverages, are necessary. They're necessary to cause the frustration of spending years and years studying and learning and struggling with all these things and still finding that none of this makes a vineyard appear. It's a frustration that grows until eventually it makes you give up wine, the idea of a vineyard, and in the process, perhaps, yourself - a frustration that brings you to an edge you never would otherwise have had the courage to step up to, and pushes you over, so that you end up not only with nothing, but as nothing. And then, there is simply: vines growing, sun shining. Maybe, maybe that whole long process is essential to growing a vineyard. In this case, spiritual
paths - gradualness - can be supported and recommended.
And yet, there's another way in which it feels like all those distractions simply create an extra layer of problems, personal and societal. So why even *consider* putting someone else through all that frustration - why not just recommend growing a vineyard? Who knows if long years of searching and frustration are helpful and necessary. The person to whom that happened has nothing else to compare with from experience. In addition, the comfort (or pride, or power, or safety, etc.) of being heavily involved in wine connoisseurship often waylays people.
Are the people who are serially distracted by (and often serially stuck in) all those aspects of wine really any more likely to grow a vineyard than those to whom someone simply says, as Eric and many do, "Grow a vineyard"? The amount of people who become involved in wine appreciation will be much larger than the amount of people who are open to simply and directly growing a vineyard. All sorts of things hold people back from the latter. But as far as actual effectiveness of each approach, I don't think the answer is known.
So here are two contrasted options. And perhaps there are more; for instance, there is also the very real pull of this option: saying nothing. In which case, perhaps, to paraphrase yosy's recent post about Hanuman, Your life is your message.
Jodi