I'll take a stab at explaining...grammarcommieMarch 29 2011, 03:30:46 UTC
Yeah see... one of my major problems with this movie, is the omnipresent violent against women and implied violence against women which has me very very leery of labeling this movie really feminist. Visually it was a gorgeous movie. I loved the use of music, though sometimes I think it was a sledgehammer where a tack hammer would have done. I also think that the whole concept of following someone's psychotic breakdown and depicting it as a fabulous fantasy world they build to protect themselves-- interesting
( ... )
Re: I'll take a stab at explaining...slearyMarch 29 2011, 03:39:37 UTC
But mostly I think the part that is getting the fucked-up label is that the movie seems to be shooting for some type of female empowerment message, but all of the women in the entire movie are victims of men both violently and sexually. The only non-abusive man in the whole thing is the guardian angel figure. And while this violence is portrayed in a way that is supposed to be seen negatively, it's rather hypocritical to be descrying this sexual violence against while dressing them in fetish outfits.
Re: I'll take a stab at explaining...nojhMarch 29 2011, 13:36:58 UTC
Fair points.
I'll agree with the characterization and especially agree about the use of the male gender in the film. Gender equality is not something the movie even really tried for.
The movie does portray far more violence than actual empowerment, unless you consider the action scenes to be empowerment (4 or 5 women surrounded by male monsters, kicking ass against all adversity). I agree having a male as the guardian figure seemed an off choice to, although I felt his voice fit the narrative well.
I'm on the fence about the fetish outfits. They made sense for the club storyline. They didn't exist in the asylum storyline, as far as we know. I felt like in the war storyline the outfits were meant to be a symbol of empowerment as much as they were not in the club storyline. I suppose that is up to the individual to decide if they were or were not. I can't decide if they were or not. I think perhaps the other girl's outfits were, but Baby Doll's was not.
Re: I'll take a stab at explaining...slearyMarch 29 2011, 20:40:50 UTC
I'm not buying the fetish wear as empowering, even in the action scenes. If they wore the stuff to turn each other on, fine, but the action-outfits are clearly based on the club-outfits. What's the message there? Even in your fantasy world, you're stuck wearing what the men want you to? Empowered women get to choose their own fucking clothing.
As cassiealexander pointed out, the women were allowed to kick ass only when fighting the fantasy monsters, and then only when coached by a man. When it came to the men who were actually making their lives hell, they were portrayed as ineffectual. For her efforts to save her friends, the main character gets raped off screen and then lobotomized. Get that: her stepfather wanted her to shut up and look pretty and stop BOTHERING him with her silly OBJECTIONS to his RAPING AND MURDERING activities, and in the end made it happen in the most horrifying way possible.
How is this anything but viscerally offensive to women?
Re: I'll take a stab at explaining...nojhMarch 30 2011, 02:19:23 UTC
I don't think the women were "allowed to kick ass". I think they did kick ass. I still feel the fact that they kicked ass is empowerment. The monsters aspect I think was a focus primarily to keep the film at a PG-13 rating, which I feel diminished the message of the entire film overall. While I liked that it was zombie steampunk automata and probably the best CGI dragon ever and orcs all over the place and I agree that their ass kicking was a little diminished by it being fantastic adversaries. On the other hand if it had been waves and waves of men and women... would that have made it better or less offensive? If it had just been men they were killing? I think that would have somehow been more offensive. I'm not sure
( ... )
Re: I'll take a stab at explaining...grammarcommieMarch 30 2011, 19:24:34 UTC
Where is the empowerment? There is really my question. Empowerment more than just looking hot and kicking ass. It's okay to have hot women kicking ass, but if the emphasis is still on the fact that they are hot as their only thing of value, then it's not empowering
( ... )
Re: I'll take a stab at explaining...nojhMarch 30 2011, 19:45:25 UTC
I think you're belittling the kicking ass part and implying that their looking hot in the war storyline eclipses or diminishes their kicking butt. The overall theme of that entire storyline is five women coming together to overtake fantastic odds. The biggest problem with them looking hot is that we have no real scene in the war storyline of them confirming for themselves that what they are wearing is what they want. It seems logical to me, as it is their (or at least Baby Doll's) fantasy, but it is never outright stated nor are the characters developed enough for us to know what they prefer
( ... )
Re: I'll take a stab at explaining...grammarcommieMarch 30 2011, 20:06:29 UTC
Okay, let me try this a different way. The costumes seem much more like something a man would like a woman to wear rather than something we would choose for ourselves. It doesn't make sense to me or a lot of other women that it would be preferable for to a 20 year old woman to think of herself as a whore held captive in a glitzy brothel to her reality. I understand she is mentally breaking down. I just don't see the choices made as being made with a female voice or mind
( ... )
Re: I'll take a stab at explaining...nojhMarch 30 2011, 20:29:29 UTC
I'll agree that a man could come up with the costumes the women wore int he war storyline. I can also think of a few women who'd prefer to as well, when given the choice. And in all of the realities, the war storyline is probably the place Baby Doll has the most choice and freedom. There is also an argument to be made that in choosing, if she did choose, costumes that were similar to the ones in the brothel storyline, that she was subverting them for her own empowerment because there, she made the choice. It's another interpretation though
( ... )
Re: I'll take a stab at explaining...emtigereyesMarch 31 2011, 04:46:42 UTC
First, I caveat my statement with the fact that I have not seen the movie, I had little to no interest in seeing it before, and after reading the various commentaries, definitely don't wish to see it. I spoke with someone who has seen the movie, and base the following comments on that, plus your initial post:
Text continues in white: All of the "girls kicking ass" is taking place in this poor girl's mind as she endures abuse at the hands of her "carers" up to the point of her lobotomy. It's escapism... though given what's happened and happening, not exactly surprising. She is in a situation where she has no way of saving herself, she is a complete and utter victim, so she mentally withdraws. She is not saved until she is a hollow shell of herself, and the bad guy wins. I imagine this is an interesting art film, but dream-within-a-dream "here's how I'd like to handle the opposition that I face" to hide from a horrific reality does not sound like a good night at the movies for me. I had a hard enough time with the similar cinema
( ... )
Reply
THIS x1000.
Reply
I'll agree with the characterization and especially agree about the use of the male gender in the film. Gender equality is not something the movie even really tried for.
The movie does portray far more violence than actual empowerment, unless you consider the action scenes to be empowerment (4 or 5 women surrounded by male monsters, kicking ass against all adversity). I agree having a male as the guardian figure seemed an off choice to, although I felt his voice fit the narrative well.
I'm on the fence about the fetish outfits. They made sense for the club storyline. They didn't exist in the asylum storyline, as far as we know. I felt like in the war storyline the outfits were meant to be a symbol of empowerment as much as they were not in the club storyline. I suppose that is up to the individual to decide if they were or were not. I can't decide if they were or not. I think perhaps the other girl's outfits were, but Baby Doll's was not.
Reply
As cassiealexander pointed out, the women were allowed to kick ass only when fighting the fantasy monsters, and then only when coached by a man. When it came to the men who were actually making their lives hell, they were portrayed as ineffectual. For her efforts to save her friends, the main character gets raped off screen and then lobotomized. Get that: her stepfather wanted her to shut up and look pretty and stop BOTHERING him with her silly OBJECTIONS to his RAPING AND MURDERING activities, and in the end made it happen in the most horrifying way possible.
How is this anything but viscerally offensive to women?
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Text continues in white:
All of the "girls kicking ass" is taking place in this poor girl's mind as she endures abuse at the hands of her "carers" up to the point of her lobotomy. It's escapism... though given what's happened and happening, not exactly surprising. She is in a situation where she has no way of saving herself, she is a complete and utter victim, so she mentally withdraws. She is not saved until she is a hollow shell of herself, and the bad guy wins. I imagine this is an interesting art film, but dream-within-a-dream "here's how I'd like to handle the opposition that I face" to hide from a horrific reality does not sound like a good night at the movies for me. I had a hard enough time with the similar cinema ( ... )
Reply
Leave a comment