A plea

[noevilmusic]

Prefacing this by saying that this is only going on LJ because I don't know how I'm gonna have time to personally talk to everyone within the next short period of time and I'm not going to make a million phone calls or see you all on AIM, otherwise this honestly wouldn't be here. Also I'm not going to proofread before posting so this will all be

Comments

[zacronos]

I really strongly think things aren't as straight-forward as that. For one thing, being involved with the fact that Cheryl has inappropriately hurt Billy is different from being involved with what they want to do with their relationship. Why should people have to pretend Cheryl didn't do something wrong that hurt one of their friends? That's not about how Billy and Cheryl respond to what happened, it's about how other people interact with Cheryl. How Billy and Cheryl deal with it and what happens with their relationship *is* between them. But if a friend of Billy or of Cheryl thinks that the relationship is really hurting one or the other, why shouldn't that friend seek them out and talk to them about it, whether or not Billy and Cheryl ask for advice? A truly good friend is willing to offer unwelcome advice; the decision, though, would still be between the two of them.

As an example, if Billy were beating Cheryl, but she still wanted to stay with him and let him beat her, then would it be "something for Billy and Cheryl to resolve"? No. Would anyone care whether they wanted other people involved? No. Would it make it harder to have the courage to get involved? Yes. So the prevailing attitude of "we shouldn't be involved at all" is really not very solid. The question isn't whether on principle alone we should or should not be involved. I've expressed why I think that in general it is acceptable and even encouragable for the community to be involved to some extent. So rather than just saying "it's not our place, because it's just not our business", people should be saying why in this particular instance it would be better for us to stay out. But no one has bothered to justify the idea that "we shouldn't be involved", they simply say it, despite some posted arguments to the contrary.

(continue)

[zacronos]

I feel like the attitude of some posts has turned to that of appeasement, a broken record reguritating the least controversial opinions back into new posts: "This is their business unless they want to ask our advice.", "Let's not talk about this on LJ.", "Cheryl deserves the same love and support as Billy." Some posts seem to say nothing more than that, even thought it's already all been said, except maybe to additionally criticize those who are willing to speak strongly. I feel like those posts are nothing but an effort to be involved in the conversation/debate/drama/whatever without making any waves, to jump on the bandwagon of what seems to be the most socially acceptable opinions, to speak up and say "yeah, I vote for that too!".

The only way someone never has an opinion at odds with the majority is if they are a complete conformist. So if and when you have an opinion that is in the minority, go ahead and say it strongly! Speak with confidence! Take a stand for your opinion, and maybe you'll make a difference. Show your emotion and your frustration over what happened! There's nothing wrong with that. Just because someone else posts a kind, caring, sensitive opinion doesn't mean they're right and you're a jerk. Disagree with Cheryl, disagree with Colby, disagree with Matt, disagree with me! C'mon people, I know you have more spine than this! You know that no one has directly opposed a single word I've said? Despite the fact that I have agreed on a majority of points with Colby, and with Corey's main point as well. There was lots of diagreement with their posts, but not a single word voicing disagreement with what I've written. So what the #@%^ is going on?

Well, I'll tell you what I think. I don't hold any illusions that I'm just so elequent with my writing that suddenly everyone agrees with me after reading. However, my posts tend to be well-reasoned and well-supported, and so I think people are just too intimidated at the idea that "maybe I'm wrong, or even worse -- maybe it will be obvious to everyone that I'm wrong!" to speak up and tell me that they disagree. Or maybe they feel like it would be too much effort to support their opinion well enough for it to stand up against my well-supported opinion. Well, if that's what's going on, then I think people should just get over it -- tell me I'm wrong if that's what you think! If you are willing, please tell me *why* you think I'm wrong. But even if you're not, it should be worthwhile to say "Joe, I know everything you said makes sense, but I just disagree. It's not right to not be more caring and sensitive about what Cheryl is going through in this. Yeah, she may have hurt Billy, but I'm sure the guilt she has to deal with is pretty painful, too." Simple, to the point, expressive, disagrees with me, and yet is still a good post even though it's not explicitly well-supported. It's an opinion, and opinions don't always have a lot of thought behind them.

Hey Joe, sorry that whole rant got directed at you, this is just where I finally got around to voicing those opinions. A lot of the second half probably doesn't pertain directly to your comment.

[noevilmusic]

Since this is on my journal I'm actually going to take the time to respond.

Hey Joe, I think you're wrong.

I don't think they need advice on the fact that Billy hurt Cheryl. They know that, we know that. I can be as mad as possible about any act that someone does and not have to be mad at them. Cheryl doesn't owe US any reconciliation, she owes it to Billy. Cheryl said that she's trying to work on that and I'm willing to believe her. If they want advice on the relationship they'll ask us for it, in the mean time how are we supposed to tell them how they feel or how they should feel? If they want to open up just to talk to someone or to get advice I'll be there then. In the meantime I'm there to support. If asked, yes I think Cheryl did something wrong, clearly it violates my own beliefs on what I see as moral. I dislike it, to be perfectly honest what happened does disgust me. But Cheryl doesn't disgust me and she's still my friend through it. If she had been dating someone outside the group and this had come up I would have still been disgusted by that act but I still would have tried to be her friend to help her deal with it. Conversely if someone outside the group had done this to Billy I'd be disgusted by it but believe it or not I wouldn't hate that person over it, I'd just try to be Billy's friend and comfort him.

[noevilmusic]

Speaking out against wrong acts is all well and good but don't forget there's an actor behind all of that and they do have feelings. With the Billy beating Cheryl example then yes, I would expect girls to rally behind Cheryl and demonize Billy but that doesn't mean that I think it would be right and I'd criticize them for it. I would think that Cheryl would need a lot on comfort for that but I'd also think that that would point to something within Billy that needed to be dealt with and I'd want to be his friend to help him with that. From what I've heard from Cheryl I think she's pretty aware of the cause of what she did and she's trying to deal with it. As far as I'm concerned that, along with her apology and reconciliation to BILLY to get HIS forgiveness (well, and from my view God's as well) is what she needs to do. She doesn't need to repent to me or do anything to make it up for me and I don't think that attacking her or the situation helps. I don't think bringing the situation up in public forums to berate it repeatedly helps either.

[zacronos]

arg... ran out of time in the day... will reply tomorrow...

[zacronos]

Ok, I never replied to this... I just ran out of steam on wanting to write about this. Wish we could have a face-to-face about it, though. There are some differences between the opinion I tried to express and the opinion you think I have, which is another good reason for people to speak up when they disagree with me -- that's the only way I'll know when I need to clarify something. But eh, I just don't have the motivation to type about it.