"That's the point, isn't it? That's what you dragged me here for?"

[amelialourdes]

Ooh. That's where we're going to go with this episode. It's a tough one all around for everyone involved! It's the start of Noah's surgery and all does not go according to plan. Dun ... dun ... DUN

Comments

[peggin]

I don't think it's fair to say Luke was being dishonest, and especially not to Reid. (He was less than honest with Noah, but that was mostly because Reid told him the truth could interfere with Noah's recovery.)

Sure, Luke was confused. He knew he was incredibly attracted to Reid, but he still felt obligated to Noah and, in his mind, was convinced that meant he was still in love with him (I mean, he kept saying he still loved him, but IMO, that was something he was telling himself, and not really what he was still feeling in his heart). IMO, if Luke he was lying to anyone, it was to himself, but he was always completely honest with Reid about what he believed he was feeling.

I get being upset over the fact that Luke still thought he wanted to work things out with Noah, and for the fact that Reid was hurt over Luke telling him as much, but Luke NEVER lead Reid on or tried to convince him he was over Noah or anything like that. In fact, he made it very, very clear that he did still feel like he owed it to Noah to give him another chance. And it's not like Luke is the one who hit on Reid, it was almost always Reid hitting on Luke, kissing him, trying to get him to talk about the kiss, cupping his cheek, etc. The only time Luke made the first move with Reid before actually committing to trying a relationship with him was after Noah had gotten Richard to take him home from the hospital and Luke was convinced that meant things were well and truly over with Noah.

Also, precisely because Reid was the one making all the moves at first and Luke was mainly reacting to them, if Reid was the one who had an ex (or nearly ex) nearby, but was making moves on Luke and then waffling about how he really felt about him, Luke would be totally justified in going crazy over it, and getting quite pissed off.

[marsabi]

I get what you're saying and I don't see Luke as dishonest (just a bit demanding /insensitive to Reid's feelings), but I think Luke did make some moves of Reid. Not overtly, but all the flirting and getting in his space and eye-sex- Luke was giving him signals! I don't see it as all just Reid making moves... I think Luke does more than just react.

Luke flirts with him and then when Reid actually ACTS on it- Luke gets freaked out...

[peggin]

I guess I just see a difference between the kinds of "flirting" things Reid did, that were deliberate (kissing Luke, trying to start a conversation about the kiss, cupping Luke's cheek, etc.) and the kinds of "flirting" things Luke did, that IMO were more involuntary (the eye sex, letting himself get pulled in and nearly kissing Reid when Reid wanted to talk about the kiss, leaning his face into Reid's hand when Reid cups his cheek, etc.).

I mean, yes, I see your point about Reid getting the wrong (or, really RIGHT) impression from Luke's reactions, but I don't see it as Luke really leading Reid on. I see it more as Luke not being able to hide his feelings, even (or maybe even especially) when he's not consciously admitting to those feelings.

[marsabi]

Well, yeah - I don't see Luke as leading him on- just wishy-washy and confused. I guess I feel for Reid here, and am frustrated with Luke ...

I agree with you about the "not consciously admitting it" ... Luke just can't do that yet...Sigh

[ganeshalemming]

Personally I think Reid's moves were scripted, but Luke's subtle flirting was a result of Van's acting choices. He did a great job of creating an arc that made his character more consistent than the writers really wrote him. From the moment Luke tilted his head in the elevator, Van portrayed Luke falling slowly in love with Reid and out of love with Noah. But the writers couldn't keep up with that level of skill, that's what I think.

[rhiannonhero]

The head tilt of love. God, I loved that moment. It was like...this is Luke Snyder falling love, okay!?!? *sigh*

[marsabi]

Oh and I think Luke made moves BEFORE Richard takes Noah home (not overtly , true, but in his way). For instance, at one point Reid wants to go back to being "Mr. Snyder/Dr. Oliver" again and Luke knows it is a lie and pressures Reid to admit it or whatever... Then, after Noah hurts him, Luke seeks Reid out in the bar... See, for me, all that keeping Reid in his orbit and not letting it go- is Luke acting on his feelings. He does not just try and avoid Reid or say that he wants only Noah. He pursues Reid here. That is why I don't see it all as Reid makign the moves. Luke wants it to keep going. Luke is conflicted and confused- I get that- but I still think he is responsible for some of why Reid keeps trying to be with him here. I don't see Luke saying he wants another chance with Noah so clearly...it's more like I owe Noah - I care about Noah- I can't just let Noah go...

[peggin]

Okay, I do see what you're saying about Luke sending a certain amount of mixed messages, but I think he was honest about them is my point. He never tried to tell Reid "I only want you" and then went off to spend time with Noah behind Reid's back or anything. IMO Luke made it as clear as anyone possibly could that he was still confused about his feelings for Noah and that he wasn't sure things were over with Noah. Even to the point of that day at Yo's where he said point blank that, yes, he was attracted to Reid, but he still [thought he] was in love with Noah.

Luke was confused, but he was honest about being confused, and gave Reid every opportunity to say, "I'm just not interested in pursing a relationship with a guy who is on the rebound and doesn't know what he wants."

[von_questenberg]

Thank you for your defense of Luke. It annoys the shit out of me when fans blather about how Luke 'led Reid on' or whatever. And if Luke gave 'mixed signals,' SO DID REID. Reid was downright cruel to Luke several times because he was jealous of Noah. In an episode or two, Luke walks in on Reid telling Noah 'I was only nice to Luke because of the money.' Luke calls him on it, and five minutes later Reid is hot-and-cold during that conversation where Noah almost sees them together. Yes, Luke was unsure of what he wanted, which I understand was painful and frustrating for Reid- but Reid spent half his time being understanding of that, and the other half being a jealous petty douche.

[marsabi]

Well, I'm NOT saying Luke led him on - I'm saying he expects a lot from Reid here. I agree both of them have moments of being jerks to each other. Reid is a big boy and could walk away from it. But I stand by the fact that Luke was making moves on Reid here- wanting to keep Reid interested...and often acting confused about it all.

[sleeper6]

Oh, it was definitely a push-and-pull type of thing with Reid and Luke; they both were attracted to each other, acted on it, then pushed each other away, got angry with each other over it and hurt each other along the way so it wasn't just Luke. I was thinking more that Luke was kind of stringing both guys along until he figured out what--and who--he wanted, which is what everyone does in this position, which is understandable. And that's the whole point of a triangle, isn't it? It comes off as a bit insensitive, I guess, when you place yourself in Reid's shoes (because definitely no one is going to place themselves in Noah's shoes and feel bad for him!).

But seeing from Luke's POV, yeah, Reid was a dick too.

[von_questenberg]

What gets me the most on the characterization front is that Reid sold himself to Luke as the guy who 'doesn't play games,' and Luke talked to Lily about how he found that attractive- so it was rather hypocritical and inconsistent for Reid to then be so hot-and-cold with Luke out of jealousy of Noah. When Reid quits Memorial and then shoves Luke away with both hands because he thinks Luke and Noah are back together, Luke calls him on his bullshit and says, 'when things don't go exactly as you want, you don't want anything to do with it.'

And yes it -was- a push-pull relationship with them. So I just really don't appreciate it when fans act like Luke was just being some air-headed brat stringing both men along, and act as if it was some great sacrifice on Reid's part to 'put up' with Luke's indecisiveness. Indecisiveness isn't a crime.

[rhiannonhero]

High to the five, bb.

[sleeper6]

What gets me the most on the characterization front is that Reid sold himself to Luke as the guy who 'doesn't play games,' and Luke talked to Lily about how he found that attractive- so it was rather hypocritical and inconsistent for Reid to then be so hot-and-cold with Luke out of jealousy of Noah.

Ah, yes, I remember this argument well; it was used a lot by Nuke fans who kept blaming Reid for saying one thing and then doing another--NOT that I'm saying that about you, heaven forbid. :) But I saw what they meant, let's just leave it at that.

But yes, Reid's jealousy and emotional state over how much he wanted Luke led to him behaving almost OOC for him--up to this point--though it really wasn't that it was OOC for him, simply that we'd never seen him act like this.

Indecisiveness isn't a crime.
No, it ain't but it's frustrating, right?

And I would never call Luke a "brat'--gosh, no, Luke will always be number one in my book no matter how he acts (even when he drinks and steals elections and stuff.) :D

This is some good stuff being discussed here but alas, work calls and I have a stack of university evaluations to pore over--damn!

[smittle]

I get what you're saying but these are all reasons that I think Reid's characterization is so marvelous. I believe that the statement that he doesn't play games is true because he doesn't behave in a controlled, deliberate, consistent way to try to manipulate Luke. He is responding very much like a human, seemingly in an unrequited love situation, so it is understandable that he would behave like a jerk to drive Luke away and yet still want him and reach for him the very next moment. I think that's terrifically realistic. We're all inconsistent or we're not human. Or we're crashing bores.

This is a really interesting discussion. I don't think anyone has come close to trashing Luke or Reid here, and we all have our likes and take sides and it's very cool when people express that frustration because we all have such different responses sometimes. What baffled me on some other sites when I was watching this real time were fans who were shipping the couple still trashing one or other of them because at one point they were not nice to the other. I love this couple together and individually so it was sometimes uncomfortable to read attacks on one or the other and I always ended up defending the one who was being attacked that day. Long story short, I think these are two fantastic characters, flawed as hell, but they are never cruel or deliberately hurtful to each other and that's part of why I love them together.

[von_questenberg]

Just to be clear- I do -love- Reid and his characterization. His being a jealous hypocrite over Noah -did- make him more complex. Like you, my major beef is that a certain segment of the fandom seems to really resent and hate Luke for not immediately dumping Noah and fucking Reid, and completely ignore the times that Reid was flat-out mean to Luke. It was a lot more complicated than, 'Luke is wishy-washy and Reid is oh-so-nice to just put up with it.'