Oooh boy....well ok I'll dive right in with the unpopular opinion here...
I'm actually ok with the ending. Did I want a more complete and happy ending for pilots? Absofrakkinlutely....but I see why they did what they did. These two weren't going to get a happy ending...I don't think anyone was under that illusion. So lets look at what they DID get.
Kara....I actually see Mark's point. She got to come back to life (through whatever medium) and do something amazing. She got to lead everyone to earth. She had a purpose...something I think she always struggled with when she was alive. She got to see all the people she loves on this new world (with the exception of Sam who filled his own purpose). I think where Mark is talking about free will he means her will and acceptance of leaving (or being called back to wherever she came from). She wasn't abruptly ripped from this world as soon as she put in the right coordinates. She was able to say goodbye to everyone she needed to and she KNEW she was leaving. I think it WAS her will to leave. She completed what she had to and the last thing she needed to do was make sure Lee was ok.
As for their goodbyes, I think how it happened was very them. First, how would Lee have reacted if Kara said "Oh hey I'm gonna poof out of here in a few minutes, peace out?". I think he would have been MORE upset if he knew. Would it have been more emotionally satisfying for us shippers to see him beg her not to go, them both cry and hug, and then have her poof? Maybe.....probably. But Kara would never want to hurt Lee like that. Not after all the things they've done to each other in the past. And Lee I think understood that. And I think they had already said so much in that exchange on Galactica:
“Because I’m Lee. And you’re Kara. And the rest of it isn’t worth a damn.”
As for Lee, him I actually feel worse for in his finale fate. Because everyone he loves is leaving/gone. But I think they were trying to show us that life would go on. He WAS excited about this new earth and exploring. And while he obviously is going to miss Kara, I think he had already made peace with the fact that he wouldn't have her with him. Again I reference the scene above. He didn't care what she was because he knows who they are and what they mean to each other. Him going on living and remembering her is how he will honor Kara and carry her with him.
Yes there are plot holes, and writing that could have been better, etc etc etc. But with finales of shows like BSG, LOST, etc. I think you have to look at the bigger picture. At least that has worked for me. I was also ok with the Lost finale (more than ok really I loved it). The entire watching audience of a show will never all agree on a satisfying ending. Because we all watch for different reasons, and we all love different aspects of a show.
I am 110% a pilot shipper, but I was able to find some peace with the ending. Does that mean I won't read alternate ending fic with happy no poof spins? Absolutely not! That is why fic is there...we can recreate, fill in holes, and make ourselves feel better about the fate of pilots. But I think the writers remained true to the show and the characters in the end.
You aren't completely alone, heheh. I was seriously upset about Daybreak but I've made my peace with it, I don't feel like I'm still mourning the disbanding of Kara/Lee, etc. I have to state that it's probably easier for me because I don't tend to ship for the endgames like most other people seem to. Sure, I usually HOPE that the pairings I like will end up happy together but in many cases I'm attracted to shipping characters who have flaws or have really complicated relationships and that I have to accept may not actually end up together and possibly sometimes even shouldn't. Still, I didn't think Kara/Lee was 100% a pipe dream and the show made me feel like they were so close to actually having the potential to choose each other right up before it shot down the possibility...and kiling my favorite character was only pouring salt on the wound.
My problem isn't with "Daybreak"; it did the best it could with what the show it had already did, and tacked on what was probably the most symmetrical/sensical conclusion to what they started with "Maelstrom." My problem is with "Maelstrom" and the loose end it left that had to be tightened up by the end of the show, no matter how arbitrarily. It's a beautiful episode, but whenever I think about the fact that these writers killed Starbuck on a whim (somebody in the writer's room literally said, "Why don't we just kill her?"), because it fit the destiny plot and because they knew it could be played ambiguously by having her return later on, I get a bit ragey. Because they thought they could get away with killing her and bringing her back, but when they tried to come up with an explanation for it, they realized that in any permanent way they couldn't. The decision to kill a major character, after giving her growth and development throughout the entire season despite the fact that she's not supposed to even be alive, was an afterthought to a writing stunt they pulled because they thought it would be cool. I'm not cool with that, but again, I think they did the best with it later on that they could have. Kara was not logically alive, her purpose in returning had been fulfilled, and keeping her around to have a happy relationship with Lee would have admittedly given the relationship the same creator's darling status as Adama/Roslin got in the last season (which seriously turned me off of the relationship after a point), and it might have felt a little too forced to have much of an emotional resonance for me.
(LOL...With me being only in season three of Lost it does make me nervous how often I see the endings compared? Especially since my boyfriend, who liked the BSG finale and is somewhat easy to please with a show he already loves, didn't like the ending of Lost. I already know my favorite pairings can't happen, though, so I guess I don't have to worry about that :/ )
I understand what you're saying about Maelstrom. Yes it still sucks beyond belief that they actually KILLED Kara. Totally with you on that. But yeah from what we had to work with I really am ok with the finale.
Ahhh well I won't spoil you for Lost! Enjoy, and don't let all the hoopla about the finale make you nervous. You will either like it or you won't....but enjoy the ride it takes you on till you get there!
Oooh, I didn't know that! I almost spoiled you the other day thinking that you had already watched the whole show! All I can say then is that I hope you enjoy it! (Now I am curious to know what you think about the ending once you get there, hee).
lskdfj sfj a??! ON A WHIM? Ok, this is why it's a good thing that I didn't see this show on its first run because I would have sucked down all the extra content they put out and just... oh wow. Yeah. I've never ever cried so much as I cried during Maelstrom--not even when my relatives die (actually "The Son Also Rises" got me worse, but the whole thing was more like a three episode string of endless tears). I'm a little pissed now that they did that to me for the hell of it. And then had no idea what to do with it later. My face, legit, is the rage face from that meme right now.
I agree with much of this - Daybreak is the logical result of Maelstrom, but even after I set what the poof meant for pilots to one side, I still don't like what the idea of a "purpose" means for Kara, especially considering she is not supposed to exist beyond it.
That idea - that she had to be gone once her "task" was complete, had no right to even be on this plane of existence without it, THAT is what will never cease to give me all-caps RAGE. We already knew her return has no logical explanation by the rational part of the BSGverse, and that has been reinforced time and again over the season. The poof in service of keeping it unknown what she really was or how she came back, that was unnecessary and gimmicky.
But you are right in that Maelstrom is the root of the problem. I will never like the idea that Kara was essentially driven to kill herself in pursuit of a Special Destiny that sucked her back into wherever once it was done with her.
I agree that the ending is very them. I'm honestly not sure a happy ending would've suited them which I knew when I jumped on board as I distinctly remember telling myself "oh, this will not end well." Yeah? Ya think? Haha. But I don't like the non-explanations and the ridiculous poof. Just whut. Although, I literally went through an entire tissue box the first time I watched the finale, so it's not like it doesn't touch me or like I just rage and immediately discount it. It's not the occurrences that piss me off so much it's the way the narrative tries to explain things. My rage didn't come until about a week after the fact when I had finally thought through everything that this show had ended up saying.
AND I COMPLETELY AGREE the thing that upsets me the most about the finale is poor poor Lee. He is literally alone in a field on an alien planet. Everyone he loves has left him in the space of five minutes. I just imagine him lying down and not moving for a very very long time.
(my eggs are better served in omelets ;-) you are safe.)
Ok, here's my caveat since I keep spamming this entry: I am a Media Studies and New Media scholar so I have, do, and will continue to think this show into the ground on multiple levels. I APOLOGIZE. You can hit me with a frying pan when I get annoying.
Haha yes that is exactly what I told myself too re: this will not end well....a guy and his dead brothers fiancee? But I saw the chemistry and knew I'd ship it despite knowing it was probably not going to work out the way I wanted. I get what you are saying about non-explanations and that brings me back to comparing it to the Lost finale. I didn't need explanations for Lost because for me, while I LOVED the mythology and island stuff, what I loved MORE was the characters. I wanted to see THEIR end, not the islands crazy mysteries end. But for other people, they really wanted more answers. And I totally get that. So for BSG I feel like it was the same. I don't need to know what Kara was when she came back. I can guess, and I like that. What I needed was to know that the character was at peace. And I truly believe she is.
Yes to Lee! Poor bb. Really I think he did end up getting the short end of the stick. But I think given his face when he said he'd never forget Kara.....I think that was the beginning of him making peace with the whole situation. He's not going to forget her and he'll carry her around in his heart while he makes his new life on this planet.
Glad to not have the eggs thrown at me, lol. That is awesome that you are doing Media Studies. Think this show into the ground ALL you want! I love a good discussion!
I've never seen Lost but I've been told that it goes nuts at the end, so I've kind of become disinterested in it. I do think that BSG is character-driven like you say, but I just need the story to make sense on a larger level. I've come to the conclusion however, that BSG is not about the ending, it's about how we get there. This is pretty much the only argument I can use to make myself ok with making other people watch the show. Once they've seen it, they can decide for themselves, and we can all discuss ;-). I just don't like the thought of discounting the amazing characters I've come to love and the fascinating journey that they set out on simply because I find the ending unsatisfactory. I think that might just be the nature of TV show finale's in general. There's a lot of stuff to tie up and sometimes the people who started it can't think of a way to end it. Then we get things like Lost or BSG. That's just the danger of being a fan of Cult TV. They can make plenty of mysteries but it's a lot harder to wrap them up satisfactorily.
I distinctly remember telling myself "oh, this will not end well."
I remember telling myself at the end of the miniseries, "This is going to be HARD on those two. Like Whedonesque levels of torture." (little did I know!)
I have so many mixed feelings about the finale when I think about it, and a lot of them are RAGE. But I can live with it, because it really is about the journey and not the destination. Thanks to the poof, this may be it for them on this plane of existence, but not on the next one - not if Kara's "See you on the other side" to Lee in Maelstrom is anything to go by.
Ha, I've been catching up on TV all year (as in I hadn't watched first run TV in yeeears) and I had just watched all of Whedon's stuff before I did BSG. WHEDON DID NOT EVER INFLICT THIS MUCH PAIN ON ME. And he is like the master of emotional torture.
All the icons in this post today are making me cry. I need to work on my emotions.
I asked myself if I felt the pain of BSG more because of being so powerfully attached to Lee and Kara as a ship as well as characters in their own right, more than I'd ever been attached to any Whedon-ship on any of his series. Conclusion......no, BSG just tortures us worse. I might have felt sad over Buffy and Angel but that was more because I hated seeing Buffy sad, I can't give a frak about Angel. Or even Willow/Oz, they made my heart hurt for both of them but in the end I was happy to see her with Tara.
I'm going into a rewatch of season 3 and 4 in the next week, and need to steel myself for it. (and I hear you on the icons)
I'm actually ok with the ending. Did I want a more complete and happy ending for pilots? Absofrakkinlutely....but I see why they did what they did. These two weren't going to get a happy ending...I don't think anyone was under that illusion. So lets look at what they DID get.
Kara....I actually see Mark's point. She got to come back to life (through whatever medium) and do something amazing. She got to lead everyone to earth. She had a purpose...something I think she always struggled with when she was alive. She got to see all the people she loves on this new world (with the exception of Sam who filled his own purpose). I think where Mark is talking about free will he means her will and acceptance of leaving (or being called back to wherever she came from). She wasn't abruptly ripped from this world as soon as she put in the right coordinates. She was able to say goodbye to everyone she needed to and she KNEW she was leaving. I think it WAS her will to leave. She completed what she had to and the last thing she needed to do was make sure Lee was ok.
As for their goodbyes, I think how it happened was very them. First, how would Lee have reacted if Kara said "Oh hey I'm gonna poof out of here in a few minutes, peace out?". I think he would have been MORE upset if he knew. Would it have been more emotionally satisfying for us shippers to see him beg her not to go, them both cry and hug, and then have her poof? Maybe.....probably. But Kara would never want to hurt Lee like that. Not after all the things they've done to each other in the past. And Lee I think understood that. And I think they had already said so much in that exchange on Galactica:
“Because I’m Lee. And you’re Kara. And the rest of it isn’t worth a damn.”
As for Lee, him I actually feel worse for in his finale fate. Because everyone he loves is leaving/gone. But I think they were trying to show us that life would go on. He WAS excited about this new earth and exploring. And while he obviously is going to miss Kara, I think he had already made peace with the fact that he wouldn't have her with him. Again I reference the scene above. He didn't care what she was because he knows who they are and what they mean to each other. Him going on living and remembering her is how he will honor Kara and carry her with him.
Yes there are plot holes, and writing that could have been better, etc etc etc. But with finales of shows like BSG, LOST, etc. I think you have to look at the bigger picture. At least that has worked for me. I was also ok with the Lost finale (more than ok really I loved it). The entire watching audience of a show will never all agree on a satisfying ending. Because we all watch for different reasons, and we all love different aspects of a show.
I am 110% a pilot shipper, but I was able to find some peace with the ending. Does that mean I won't read alternate ending fic with happy no poof spins? Absolutely not! That is why fic is there...we can recreate, fill in holes, and make ourselves feel better about the fate of pilots. But I think the writers remained true to the show and the characters in the end.
*ducks from the eggs*
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My problem isn't with "Daybreak"; it did the best it could with what the show it had already did, and tacked on what was probably the most symmetrical/sensical conclusion to what they started with "Maelstrom." My problem is with "Maelstrom" and the loose end it left that had to be tightened up by the end of the show, no matter how arbitrarily. It's a beautiful episode, but whenever I think about the fact that these writers killed Starbuck on a whim (somebody in the writer's room literally said, "Why don't we just kill her?"), because it fit the destiny plot and because they knew it could be played ambiguously by having her return later on, I get a bit ragey. Because they thought they could get away with killing her and bringing her back, but when they tried to come up with an explanation for it, they realized that in any permanent way they couldn't. The decision to kill a major character, after giving her growth and development throughout the entire season despite the fact that she's not supposed to even be alive, was an afterthought to a writing stunt they pulled because they thought it would be cool. I'm not cool with that, but again, I think they did the best with it later on that they could have. Kara was not logically alive, her purpose in returning had been fulfilled, and keeping her around to have a happy relationship with Lee would have admittedly given the relationship the same creator's darling status as Adama/Roslin got in the last season (which seriously turned me off of the relationship after a point), and it might have felt a little too forced to have much of an emotional resonance for me.
(LOL...With me being only in season three of Lost it does make me nervous how often I see the endings compared? Especially since my boyfriend, who liked the BSG finale and is somewhat easy to please with a show he already loves, didn't like the ending of Lost. I already know my favorite pairings can't happen, though, so I guess I don't have to worry about that :/ )
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Ahhh well I won't spoil you for Lost! Enjoy, and don't let all the hoopla about the finale make you nervous. You will either like it or you won't....but enjoy the ride it takes you on till you get there!
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Oooh, I didn't know that! I almost spoiled you the other day thinking that you had already watched the whole show! All I can say then is that I hope you enjoy it! (Now I am curious to know what you think about the ending once you get there, hee).
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That idea - that she had to be gone once her "task" was complete, had no right to even be on this plane of existence without it, THAT is what will never cease to give me all-caps RAGE. We already knew her return has no logical explanation by the rational part of the BSGverse, and that has been reinforced time and again over the season. The poof in service of keeping it unknown what she really was or how she came back, that was unnecessary and gimmicky.
But you are right in that Maelstrom is the root of the problem. I will never like the idea that Kara was essentially driven to kill herself in pursuit of a Special Destiny that sucked her back into wherever once it was done with her.
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AND I COMPLETELY AGREE the thing that upsets me the most about the finale is poor poor Lee. He is literally alone in a field on an alien planet. Everyone he loves has left him in the space of five minutes. I just imagine him lying down and not moving for a very very long time.
(my eggs are better served in omelets ;-) you are safe.)
Ok, here's my caveat since I keep spamming this entry: I am a Media Studies and New Media scholar so I have, do, and will continue to think this show into the ground on multiple levels. I APOLOGIZE. You can hit me with a frying pan when I get annoying.
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Yes to Lee! Poor bb. Really I think he did end up getting the short end of the stick. But I think given his face when he said he'd never forget Kara.....I think that was the beginning of him making peace with the whole situation. He's not going to forget her and he'll carry her around in his heart while he makes his new life on this planet.
Glad to not have the eggs thrown at me, lol. That is awesome that you are doing Media Studies. Think this show into the ground ALL you want! I love a good discussion!
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I remember telling myself at the end of the miniseries, "This is going to be HARD on those two. Like Whedonesque levels of torture." (little did I know!)
I have so many mixed feelings about the finale when I think about it, and a lot of them are RAGE. But I can live with it, because it really is about the journey and not the destination. Thanks to the poof, this may be it for them on this plane of existence, but not on the next one - not if Kara's "See you on the other side" to Lee in Maelstrom is anything to go by.
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All the icons in this post today are making me cry. I need to work on my emotions.
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I asked myself if I felt the pain of BSG more because of being so powerfully attached to Lee and Kara as a ship as well as characters in their own right, more than I'd ever been attached to any Whedon-ship on any of his series. Conclusion......no, BSG just tortures us worse. I might have felt sad over Buffy and Angel but that was more because I hated seeing Buffy sad, I can't give a frak about Angel. Or even Willow/Oz, they made my heart hurt for both of them but in the end I was happy to see her with Tara.
I'm going into a rewatch of season 3 and 4 in the next week, and need to steel myself for it. (and I hear you on the icons)
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