Colliding Large Hadrons

Sep 09, 2008 11:44

Yes, we have less than 24 hours before the world is sucked into a black hole created by the maniac scientists at CERN. Well, OK, that is not really the case, but still, I was once a maniac scientist (or possibly a Boffin) so I feel they should get all the publicity they can ( Read more... )

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nilsigma September 10 2008, 07:41:35 UTC
Seriously?

Well, back in the late 70's when I was involved in high energy physics I sat through several seminars based loosely on 'power from nuclear fusion'. They largely consisted of graphs showing temperature and pressure and time. The thesis was 'if you fund my research for N billions of dollars I can push up into the shaded area of the graph (high temperature and pressure) by date X and then we will get out more energy than we put in'.

The values of cost N, and time to completion, X varied, but the shaded area of the graph was always the same. So in those days high temperature and high pressure would give us all endless cheap clean nuclear fusion reactors by 2000 at the latest.

Nowadays the focus has shifted. They still aim for the high temperatures and pressures, but now the elusive goal is the Higgs boson. (Apparently every field is meant to have an associated particle. Higgs dreamt up a mass field and therefore it must have an associated particle - the Higgs boson. Does that logic sound weak to you?).

So, what have we learnt -

1) Controlled nuclear fusion as an energy source is dead in the water.
2) Physics can still attract an obscene amount of money
3) By next year there will be plans for an even bigger collider

Or, to answer your question, not only do I not think they will snatch the Higgs boson, I do not think that the Higgs boson exists. The whole rickety structure of particle physics is overdue to be ripped down and done again. CERN will not do that, or me for that matter, but it is long overdue. Too many fiddle factors, too many unanswered problems, too many people whose careers depend on upholding the status quo.

Its got to go.

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kloroform September 11 2008, 08:33:57 UTC
I can't help but marvel how CERN is able attract such a crazy funding with the ease of a magician who pulls a bunny out of his hat. "Obscene amount of money" indeed. The hunt for the 'God Particle' better be worth it, because the staggering amounts of cash it has taken to scrape this whole circus together (not to mention actually running it on a daily basis) could almost solve the third world food crisis.

Then again, a wild goose chase could be far more pleasant idea than the old testament God jumping out of the finally unveiled Higgs boson and punishing us with an apocalypse for opening the Pandora's box. On the other hand, you believe in neither of those entities, and I remain as an agnostic, so perhaps we'll be safe? "Is it safe? Is it safe?" LOL

I'm just wondering when mankind faces the day when it has poked it's fingers into something that's far beyond it's capabilities to control. Perhaps not just yet (even though doomsayers cry 'black holes' even now), but I think we're getting closer every day.

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nilsigma September 11 2008, 10:36:11 UTC
Well, of course the original steam trains would 'suck the air out of your lungs' at speeds faster than a galloping horse. And girls brains explode if you teach them something as complex as reading. So yes, one day we will go too far.

And then, after the apocalypse, there will be two people left on the smoking earth - a scientist saying 'Ok so lets try again with alpha set to 0.372 this time' and a journalist saying 'I told you so'.

Oh, and a 14 yo blogger complaining that her parents don't treat her like an adult because they won't let her have anal sex with the dishy man next door ...

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To the dishly man next door kloroform September 12 2008, 05:54:26 UTC
Ah, a generous round of the patented Nilsigma sarcasm, brewed and bottled in UK. However, don't get too excited yet, I'm not trying to preach about 'them reckless scientists sending us back to the dark ages with their foul experiments'. Without a doubt, I've often made you howl with laughter (or stare at the screen with disbelief) when I've tried to dabble with concepts that are beyond my intellect and knowledge, but methinks this is not one of those moments 'this poor ape is trying to reach the moon with his bare hands (again)'.

I was merely thinking about the last time mankind was in a similar situation, and whether or not mankind is equipped to deal with the consequences which tend to be completely unexpected (but on hindsight inevitable, and obvious as hell).

To the point: Splitting the atom was a major breakthrough, but it almost led to third world war during the Cuban missile crisis, and the whole cold war/arms race was something the folks at the Manhattan project probably didn't see coming. If some new breakthrough of similar magnitude is made in the near future, I'm just curious what will the consequences be this time? Stuff like this always tickles my curiosity.

However, your sarcasm implies that you actually might have absolutely zero belief in anything taking place anywhere, anytime..? No Higgs boson, no God, no fusion energy, no dangers, no benefits, no nothing... I find this all a bit alarming. Of course, I've known to be wrong, from time to time, but I find it difficult to believe that I'd be imagining these high levels of sarcasm that could be used to uncover the Higgs boson without all those darn expensive doohickeys, thingamabobs and watchamacallits... Hmmm.

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Re: To the dishly man next door nilsigma September 12 2008, 09:05:58 UTC
You forget that to me the Big Bang is a new-fangled idea (and one that was treated with some scorn). I was brought up in a Steady State universe. I was also brought up to trust in experimentally proved theories. Almost all the current structure of particle physics is unproven as yet. When people confidently give percentages for the amount of 'dark energy' and 'dark matter' in the universe I remember that neither has ever been discovered. These are simply what happens if you put numbers into equations and turn the handles. Higgs hypothesised the Higgs field (and its associated boson) to explain mass, but it is just that, a hypothesis, until proof is obtained.

So, God, Higgs boson, dark matter are all in the same bit of my brain labelled 'Nice Idea - but where is the proof?'.

Fusion energy is different. Clearly this is a possible technology (and I played an incredibly tiny part in its early days) but we are a long way from ever actually generating. The current date is 2035, so it is approximately 35 years behind the schedule being advertised in 1980. That is not a very good track record given the huge amount of international effort that has been put in.

Last, but not least, Man's capability of destroying the planet. That is where the sarcasm comes to the front, because Man has been prophecying doom for ever. As I said, if it was not steam trains, it was teaching women to read (both of those are real examples btw). If it was not the Yellow Peril of China it was Bird Flu. If it was not Mutual Assured Destruction it was AIDS. The real doom bringers are the ones nobody spots, the medieval Plagues in Europe, Cholera, MTV.

You might find a lack of faith alarming, but I find it liberating. Anyway I do have faith, I have faith in the fact that the planet and its inhabitants have got along pretty well for millions of years without man and will get on pretty well after man too. Quite how we f**k ourselves over does not really bother me.

Meanwhile, I will be excited if they do find the Higgs boson, but secretly disappointed too. I do not like the structure of the Universe as it is currently understood, and I really do think that physics is overdue for a big rewrite.

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kloroform September 12 2008, 09:38:03 UTC
Want to know what's alarming? I know this will sound cheesy and corny, but bare with me just for a second.

Okay, ready? A fairly large part of me wishes that the LHC experiments go wrong in some glorious, insane way. A black hole/worm hole apperas and swallows half of Switzerland and unleashes some unspeakable creatures from another dimension.

Yes, sci-fi gobbledygook at it's worst, but why?

I'm so didillusioned with the world and the way mankind as ended up as a vile snake eating it's own tail. I think it needs to get it's head pulled out of it's own arse by some massive incident that would shake, rattle and roll the way so many see the universe. It would bring something cempletely NEW to this mundane tug-o-war of science vs. religion.

Man as the pinnacle of creation; God's chosen champions; No other life in universe; Everything proven by science or it's hogwash...

Still, despite of some out-of-this world phenomenon taking place, I believe mankind would come up with an explanation for it in order to keep it's collective cranium lodged deep into it's rectum.

Religious fanatics would probably rejoice and declare loudly that demons from Hell are upon the Earth and every word that Bible/Quran/Whatever says is true. Scientists and sociologists would probably call it mass hysteria. Weapons industry and great powers would have a party at finding a new enemy which to destroy and/or exploit. Do I sound cynical..? Hmmm.

I guess it's me who's truly lacking faith and the simple idea of dark matter and bosons is simply fascinating, even though I'm not sure if their existence would change anything in the long run. A cynic in me says, 'Why should anything need to change in the first place, we're doooooooomed!' LOLZ!!

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nilsigma September 12 2008, 11:35:42 UTC
I love your analysis of how we would react to aliens. Especially the destroy and/or exploit option. My personal cynicism is that there would be such a high degree of argument between the destroyers and the exploiters that nothing would actually happen. All of which assumes the aliens are not already here, Mrs Palin ...

As for science and religion - science should not say that everything unproven is hogwash, just that it is unproven. It becomes hogwash when it is proven wrong. And if you take the religious point that Man is the Crown of Creation (I am a Jefferson Airplane fan btw), then clearly aliens can exist, it is just they are inferior, like monkeys.

Anyway, I need to look in my desk drawer, if a Higgs boson exists that is where it will be!!!

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Re: To the dishly man next door kloroform September 12 2008, 09:38:38 UTC
Oops. I forgot to login. Yarblockos!!

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Re: To the dishly man next door nilsigma September 12 2008, 09:58:10 UTC
I deleted the anonymous one.

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