I think he does understand privilege, but on this one he doesn't seem to understand entirely why women are going "this is what we get with rape culture/misogyny".
In part, because of some serious dramah!!! within the atheist skeptic community, but I pointed out a few instances of my dating life and I dunno. He'll get it or he won't. I think he just really wants to believe these are really isolated cases. He's never, in any form made any derogatory comment on a woman and it would never occur to him to do so, and so he kind of believes, I think, that other guys don't either.
He's quite aware of mansplaining and white-knighting and the like. but I think this is a whole eye opener to him on just how many men do seem to think women are merely things to USE.
I'm like you, another day, another shooting. After the newtown truther phenom, and the constant "if I had a gun I'd have saved the day NRA goofballs who never actually seem to be on hand, I guess they had a chikfila to gather at and pose with guns, I'm just "whatever. Its backpage news. I do like the idea of anonymizing the shooter's name.
(Oddly in amsterdam when there was a shooting by a lonely, disaffected kid, the culture was "what did we do to let this kid down so badly?" kind of discussion.
This guy was just broken beyond belief. If it wasn't the women, something else would have been the focus of his rage and disordered thinking. It seems like people tried to help but others in the chain just shrugged it off. I do believe the police should reconsider how they deal with "Yo, I think this kid's a potential bomb" reports, because as I gather, they just went "eh, looks ok to me."
Yeah, the Schroedinger's Rapist article is pretty good for showing what rape culture is and the consequences thereof. There's also a really good article, I'm not sure if I have it bookmarked, about how women are socialized to NOT make a fuss if someone is harassing them, especially if it's in public. I'm not finding it atm, though. (... this is why I have started to make an effort to bookmark good essays. Sigh.)
Storme had more than a bit of a shock with that particular issue, too. Honestly, it got to the point over the last few years where I would read some news article or essay or another and growl at my computer, "I fucking hate men." And they'd ask why, and I'd link them, and... yeah. The sheer amount of articles, essays, blog posts, etc, about how women are treated, and how men view women as objects really got through to them. They made the mistake of assuming that most men would treat women like they do (/did when they identified as male). At this point, they're about as likely as me to growl, "I fucking hate men."
And honestly, it's something I really had to come to terms with, myself... oh, probably around 24/25, when I started reading social justice / feminism related stuff, and realized that a number of things I had just shrugged off were actually harassment/sexual assault. I just hadn't put two and two together. And for my experiences, I got off rather easier than some of my female friends -- in part because I barely leave the house between pain and my massive anxiety issues around meeting new people (IRL, I have no problem with this online; I blame my childhood and dad for that one).
I think a lot of us want to believe that it's not really that bad... except it is, and between the news over the last few years (between the violence against women and the Republican war on women) and the evidence with what MRA types are saying on Reddit and other places, it's becoming more obvious. It's scary.
I can believe it, with the Netherlands. My gf Omi's mother is from there and she spent part of her childhood there, and the things she's talked about culturally are so far apart from the US. ISTR that, while the attack did not specifically target women, the shooter in... I think it was Sweden? (okay, correction, Norway) a few years ago, the Norwegian attitude also was, "How did we fail this person?" (Not sure if you were on _p at the time, but there was an article shortly following this about the prison system in Sweden and Norway, and people flipped because their system focuses on rehabilitation and includes a lot of things Americans would consider luxuries. I don't think that particular shooter ended up in that prison but it was somewhat sad to see the xenophobia over different prison systems.)
The police are an absolute mess. I've only ever had decent experiences with the local tribal police, and we haven't had that kind of situation here. Just looking at the number of deaths that have happened in the past few years with police overreacting to a situation with a mentally ill child... I don't think they have a fucking clue how to handle this. And the attitude towards mental illness in American society does not help, either. Every time this shit happens, the media starts up with "let's blame people with mental illnesses and demonize them", and in fact people with mental illnesses are at greater risk in the first place. And, as someone with multiple mental health issues, I sure as fuck don't appreciate it.
The Netherlands shooting was the DAY after I got there. I didn't understand enough of the newscast in dutch, but what I did understand was that they really felt that this damaged kid had been let down by society, not in a "maybe he was entitled to sex" thing like the US kid, but "what services or actions could we take to prevent this again". It was an honest inward look.
Not that I blame society as a whole, but it was at least honest in that "we have a kid who felt so isolated and angry he shot up a mall, and we should have seen this and acted long before it got to that point."
It sounds like the US one there were a few attempts to intervene before he exploded but the system failed on that front.
I don't feel sympathy for this kid for his sense of entitlement, I feel like "well, everything just went wrong with a really broken human being". It could have been so much worse.
I find the MRA and misogynists on line far more horrible in their "if women had just given him pity sex they could have avoided this." as if now we're to put out for prevention of shootings? Its not on us. ( there's a PUA group that often works the mall here too, until security chases them out.)
That we seem to have a batch of guys who think this is how to get women speaks to me of failure to teach them respect, responsibility, compassion. On that, I think society's failed sometimes. I'm not a prude, but we need to be a little more direct and honest about sexuality and relationships, not these idealized disasters in media.
In part, because of some serious dramah!!! within the atheist skeptic community, but I pointed out a few instances of my dating life and I dunno. He'll get it or he won't. I think he just really wants to believe these are really isolated cases. He's never, in any form made any derogatory comment on a woman and it would never occur to him to do so, and so he kind of believes, I think, that other guys don't either.
He's quite aware of mansplaining and white-knighting and the like. but I think this is a whole eye opener to him on just how many men do seem to think women are merely things to USE.
I'm like you, another day, another shooting. After the newtown truther phenom, and the constant "if I had a gun I'd have saved the day NRA goofballs who never actually seem to be on hand, I guess they had a chikfila to gather at and pose with guns, I'm just "whatever. Its backpage news. I do like the idea of anonymizing the shooter's name.
(Oddly in amsterdam when there was a shooting by a lonely, disaffected kid, the culture was "what did we do to let this kid down so badly?" kind of discussion.
This guy was just broken beyond belief. If it wasn't the women, something else would have been the focus of his rage and disordered thinking. It seems like people tried to help but others in the chain just shrugged it off. I do believe the police should reconsider how they deal with "Yo, I think this kid's a potential bomb" reports, because as I gather, they just went "eh, looks ok to me."
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Storme had more than a bit of a shock with that particular issue, too. Honestly, it got to the point over the last few years where I would read some news article or essay or another and growl at my computer, "I fucking hate men." And they'd ask why, and I'd link them, and... yeah. The sheer amount of articles, essays, blog posts, etc, about how women are treated, and how men view women as objects really got through to them. They made the mistake of assuming that most men would treat women like they do (/did when they identified as male). At this point, they're about as likely as me to growl, "I fucking hate men."
And honestly, it's something I really had to come to terms with, myself... oh, probably around 24/25, when I started reading social justice / feminism related stuff, and realized that a number of things I had just shrugged off were actually harassment/sexual assault. I just hadn't put two and two together. And for my experiences, I got off rather easier than some of my female friends -- in part because I barely leave the house between pain and my massive anxiety issues around meeting new people (IRL, I have no problem with this online; I blame my childhood and dad for that one).
I think a lot of us want to believe that it's not really that bad... except it is, and between the news over the last few years (between the violence against women and the Republican war on women) and the evidence with what MRA types are saying on Reddit and other places, it's becoming more obvious. It's scary.
I can believe it, with the Netherlands. My gf Omi's mother is from there and she spent part of her childhood there, and the things she's talked about culturally are so far apart from the US. ISTR that, while the attack did not specifically target women, the shooter in... I think it was Sweden? (okay, correction, Norway) a few years ago, the Norwegian attitude also was, "How did we fail this person?" (Not sure if you were on _p at the time, but there was an article shortly following this about the prison system in Sweden and Norway, and people flipped because their system focuses on rehabilitation and includes a lot of things Americans would consider luxuries. I don't think that particular shooter ended up in that prison but it was somewhat sad to see the xenophobia over different prison systems.)
The police are an absolute mess. I've only ever had decent experiences with the local tribal police, and we haven't had that kind of situation here. Just looking at the number of deaths that have happened in the past few years with police overreacting to a situation with a mentally ill child... I don't think they have a fucking clue how to handle this. And the attitude towards mental illness in American society does not help, either. Every time this shit happens, the media starts up with "let's blame people with mental illnesses and demonize them", and in fact people with mental illnesses are at greater risk in the first place. And, as someone with multiple mental health issues, I sure as fuck don't appreciate it.
Reply
Not that I blame society as a whole, but it was at least honest in that "we have a kid who felt so isolated and angry he shot up a mall, and we should have seen this and acted long before it got to that point."
It sounds like the US one there were a few attempts to intervene before he exploded but the system failed on that front.
I don't feel sympathy for this kid for his sense of entitlement, I feel like "well, everything just went wrong with a really broken human being". It could have been so much worse.
I find the MRA and misogynists on line far more horrible in their "if women had just given him pity sex they could have avoided this." as if now we're to put out for prevention of shootings? Its not on us. ( there's a PUA group that often works the mall here too, until security chases them out.)
That we seem to have a batch of guys who think this is how to get women speaks to me of failure to teach them respect, responsibility, compassion. On that, I think society's failed sometimes. I'm not a prude, but we need to be a little more direct and honest about sexuality and relationships, not these idealized disasters in media.
Lots of thinkings. Meh.
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