do i ever post things that aren't articles anymore?

[nicca2007]

http://www.womenpriests.org/body/price.asp

Awesome article about contraception within marriage.
Which is definitely not what I'm supposed to be writing a paper on right now. That's the problem with theology research, too many distractions.

Comments

Re: nfp

[kfollo]

all of this is good argument, but remember when getting married...you are asked by the priest "are you open and willing to accept children as a gift from God" or however its worded adn the couple is supposed to be prepared to say yes. If you say yes then think its okay to use birth control and not be open to life.....then don't get married in the Church or say NO to the priest and see what happens...and you'll say what about infertile women? should they not marry? No thats not the case becuase children may come to them through adoption or what have you. I'm saying that NFP is not required so nobody is saying that everyone HAS to practice NFP. Especially for women who it won't work for. But then you'll say what about married couples who aren't ready or prepared to handle children....then I go back to my first statement about marriage truly having an openness to children. NFP, supports that openness becuase you still leave it open to get pregnant...it's not 100% impossible to become pregnant becuase you are not putting a condom or birth control in your body (that harms the body anyway) to stop it. Hence, natural. And personally as much as I love NFP (more for reasons of having children and from the positive response I've heard from those who use it) I think a lot of this wholeissue that people think the Church wants to control our bodies...and we don't wnat anyone to have control but us....when in reality the Church is trying to encourage us to LET GOD CONTROL OUR BODIES. To let go and Let him do whatever He wills with us because the greatest gift he gave us was free will...the greatest gift back to him is our free will....let Him do with us as He pleases....then we'll be happy!

Re: nfp

[marwin]

i still don't see how NFP is different from using a condom for example. there is still the possibility of a pregnancy, condoms are not 100% effective. if it breaks, you have to be prepared to accept responsibility for the child that could be conceived. if you fail at NFP, you have to accept responsibility for the child that could be conceived. no birth control is 100% effective simply because our bodies are designed to make children. trying to manipulate that in any way to be able to have sex and not have children is going against what our bodies are designed to do, and in a christian perspective, god's plan/will. using a condom is manipulation, and also using a thermometer to check your temperature/learning when you ovulate is manipulation. both methods are using human-made techniques and tools to go against what humans naturally have.

when the priest asks you if you are open to accept children, even if you use birth control i think you can say yes. if you are in a situation in which you are prepared to raise a child if the situation comes up, i think that is open to accept children as a gift from god. what about couples who do not want to conceive children of their own, but rather would like to adopt a child who is in need of a loving home? a couple like this might practice some form of birth control as to reduce the possibility of a pregnancy, but that doesn't mean they are not open to accepting children since they want to adopt. even a couple who doesn't particularly want to have a child could be open to accepting children. maybe they don't particularly want one, but if they happen to get pregnant, they wouldn't mind. (also, a bit off topic, but what about couples who do not want children at all? does that mean they should not get married? if you are catholic and married, is it a requirement to have/raise children sometime in your life?)

tangentially, if you're arguing the point of letting god control our bodies, then by that logic isn't using medicine to make ourselves not sick not letting god control our bodies? should we be looking for things like a cure for cancer? if it was god's will that i have cancer, should i not just accept that and not try to change it, and trust that he will heal me or kill me as he sees fit?

Re: nfp

[kfollo]

I personally just don't want control. I've tried to have it but can never seem to make anything work. I've tried to control my life and my mom's gotten cancer twice. I thank God for using chemotherapy and whateverelse to heal her and make cancer free yet again, but I also thank God for gift of bearing children and hope that when I am getting married, I can truly say I will accept children whenever GOd decides to bless me with them because then at least I'll have peace knowing I didn't control when they came!

Re: nfp

[marwin]

heh, this is off topic but i'm curious. to what degree do you give god control of your life? do you feel that god will take care of things for you and you dont have to worry about stuff? can you give specific examples (well, other than having children:P) cuz i know it has to be to some degree (e.g i bet youre not going to rely on god to take care of your homework for you) but maybe you trust he'll give you the strength to work hard and get things done (like the kid with the dog in what jetta said?)

Re: nfp

[kfollo]

Well, personally, I try to give God complete control of my life. Letting Him lead me, and move me to do things. I don't have homework. I'm 22 and work full time. I depend on God to allow me to breath everyday when I wake up. I physically get up and shower and get ready but because He has blessed with my job. When it comes to big/small decisions of what to do with my life and what to do or say throughout my day, I want him to be in control of that. I don't sit here at work and say "God will do my work for me" because thats foolish. He blessed me with this job for right now so I have to do my work. I look to Him to guide me if there is someone who needs a kind word or to go out to dinner, to inspire me act accordingly.

When it comes to the bigger things like life changes, I want Him to show me exactly where He'd want me to be. What job I may need to seek, what man I need to date or not need to date, etc. Yes I do the applying for the job or the asking for or accepting of the date but hopefully not without his guidance.

Re: nfp

[jettarose]

While part of marriage is being open to children, it's not all of marriage. Living a married life can be a vocation too, just like a single life, or a life as a clergy or a parent. Being open to something is different then committing to it. I don't think a couple should decide on their wedding day never to have children, and go the rest of their lives without ever reevaluating that. Like what Monica said below, it's a state of mind. It's something that should continually be reevaluated and considered. A person can be open to the idea of becoming a priest, and decide it's not best for them, and that's ok. Having children is just as big a committment, if not bigger. If it's not what you want, and it's going to make you unhappy, and it's going to be to the detriment of the child, then the best thing is to not have a child. That doesn't mean you shouldn't get married, though. You can get married, and have a fuller life because of that relationship, and at some point you may change your mind about kids or you may not. If you continue to reexamine your and your partner's feelings on it, and continue to decide that it's not best for you or the potential child, that's ok. Sex is the consumation of your marriage, and way to become closer with your partner...it's a gift God gave to humanity. Avoiding sex to avoid children is going to put a strain on the marriage. I don't think God wants that. Furthermore, condoms and birth control do *not* make it 100% impossible to become pregnant. Condoms have a high prevention rate when used properly. "Properly" has to do with how old the condom is, how its stored, and how it's used...the actual rate of prevention is lower, even as low as 70% when used by younger couples who have little experiance using condoms. I don't remember where I got that number, though, so it could be a little off. But it's not the magic 99.9% that the condom manufactorers would like you to believe. Other forms of external birth control are generally worse. Hormonal (pill) birth control is more reliable, but it's not perfect. High 90's percentage, but not 100. You also said it "harms the body anyway". How so? As far as I know, it's no riskier than Tylenol. At least stuff currently on the market. Pretty much the point of all this is that nothing is certain. Especially using a condom...if God really wants you to have a baby, you'll have one. God did give us free will...and while we should follow God's will for us, I don't think that means giving up the ability to make judgements. It's like in a movie we had when I was a kid...the boy kept praying for a dog, and his grandfather told him he needed to meet God halfway...he needed to work to earn the money to pay for the dog,and God would give him the strength and luck to do the work and find a dog. God doesn't want to micromanage...he gave us free will so we could be responsible and make our own decisions. God will prompt us, giving us that gut feeling of what is right and wrong, and give us the strength and courage and wisdom to make the right decision, and to fix things when we do make mistakes. Having a baby isn't the right decision for every married couple. God knows this. God also created science, and physiology, making our bodies in such a way that we could prevent pregnancies when that's the right decision. NFP and condoms are two different means to the same end. NFP works perfectly in some people. If they can use it without damaging their marriage, that's great for them. But a child born to parents who don't want her and into a marriage scarred by tension over NFP that doesn't work well, that's not going to be healthy. Thats what condoms are for. Condoms were created by a human, but so was NFP. If someone hadn't invented a thermometer, you couldn't use it. If someone hadn't invented a condom, you couldn't use that either. They're simply two solutions to the same problem of "what to do when you're married but not ready for kids?". Birth control could even fit this description, though I'm generally not an advocate of screwing with hormones if there's another way to do it.

Here's a question: If you're one of the women for whom NFP is nearly 100% accurate, is using NFP still being open to having children?

Re: nfp

[kfollo]

to the question at the end....yes. Because if its' nearly 100% effective with you and you are doing it to try to conceive during your most fertile times its HUGE and totaly open to children......and yes still if you use it to try to not have kids. Because you are not adding anything to block it...there is always a possibility for pregnancy using NFP no matter how effective it is.

I really dont' even have the energy to continue to debate or even discuss this...because honestly, it's an issue that you believe you are right and so do I....so nothings really going to change. I just know in my heart that in marriage we have to be as open as possible to bearing children

and to this "iving a married life can be a vocation too"
yes it is a vocation. But part of it's vocation is being fertile and multiplying. UNLIKE single life. Different vocations mean different ways of life. Just like if I'm single or married I'm not expected to or plan on praying every single hour of the Liturgy of the Hours of the Church that cloistered nun is expected or plans to pray. That nun chose to answer the call to that vocation, that is not my vocation so I'm not expected or planning to do that. In my married vocation, I plan on and am expected to give birth to many children (many in my case cause I want lots) unlike a cloistered nun. She is not expected to bear children. So she doesn't just like I don't pray every hour of the Office.

Re: nfp

[nicca2007]

there is always the possibility for pregnancy with every form of birth control. i honestly don't believe that there is any difference between condoms and NFP. Both prevent the sperm and the egg from being in the same place at the same time. I don't believe that ALL forms of birth control are OK...forms of birth control that are abortive, like the morning-after pill, are not OK. But as long as you're preventing conception, it's OK. The matter of openness has to do with the hearts of the couple. Are they open to loving and raising a child should they become pregnant? Do they intend to raise children at some point in their lives? If the answers are yes, then the answer to the priest at the church is yes. Saying that you are open to children does not meaning saying that you want children at every moment of your married life, and that's OK. Being a parent is an important responsibility, and children are a gift from God, but NFP is not always the best way to be a good steward of that gift. Take me, for example. I highly doubt that NFP would be effective for me, because my body wouldn't know normal if it came up and punched me in the nose. I am not someone who can easily handle an unplanned pregnancy, and I never will be. I love my future children as gifts from God and I want to take care of them the best that I possibly can. If my pregnancies are unplanned I won't be able to do that, because I'm on several medications that are dangerous to unborn children. How am I being a good steward of God's gift if I'm hurting my children? Better to plan for the pregnancies so I can consult with my doctors and find ways to manage my conditions without harming my baby. If I used NFP that wouldn't be possible, because I would be liable to get pregnant unexpectedly--and because my body *is* so wierd, I probably wouldn't know about it for awhile, because I have a long cycle. The only way for me to know for sure if NFP is effective would be to use it...but considering that my personal and family medical history all points to it *not* being effective, I'd rather not risk my children's health. For me, at least, artificial birth control is a means of protecting God's gift of children, not avoiding it. And of course if I did get pregnant unexpectedly I would embrace that child, but it would be better for my future children for me to use artificial birth control.

Bottom line is, I consider openness to be a willingness to accept children in the event of a pregnancy, and a willingness to have, adopt, or otherwise help raise (ie, foster parenting, etc) children during the course of a marriage. NFP and artificial birth control are both means of controlling *when* those children come, and they're essentially the same. NFP leaves open the possibility for pregnancy, yes, but so does every other form of birth control.

Re: nfp

[nicca2007]

and another note: I'm not denying that NFP might bring couples closer together. I'm sure for many couples it does. But just because it's good for some doesn't make it good for all.

Re: nfp

[marwin]

yea i wasnt saying that NFP is bad either, i actually want to use it when i'm older :P im just arguing for the sake of trying to find out other people's opinions and trains of thought, and what those are based in. all of you guys have some interesting stuff to say! esp. cause i'm not from a catholic background, so i really dont know much about catholicism and what it teaches/what catholic people think.