The Last Jedi

[nialla42]

I forgot to mention I saw this during the first week of release, thanks to my early time off from work before Christmas. I'm sort of in a surprised/not surprised state over the reactions to it, but I have to say I get a bit twitchy when think pieces are blaming people who saw the original movies in the theater because TLJ isn't like the originals.

Comments

[nialla42]

Even if they did put in a Mara Jade-esque character now, it will never be close to what they had in the books. Such a missed opportunity to have had her as part of the Jedi Academy that Luke was trying to start, and perhaps having her be a survivor.

Combine the Rashomon effect of Ben's turning point into Kylo Ren with the mysterious Snoke who's killed off without much fanfare in TLJ, and I don't think we'll ever get the real story of what happened. Did Snoke manipulate Ben? Or possibly even Luke too? Luke says he saw darkness like he'd never seen before in Ben, and he went up against Darth Vader and Palpatine, so... did he, or was it something Snoke was doing to lead Luke to a moment of weakness where he was considering killing Ben in order to stop him before he started. That moment was viewed by Ben as his uncle trying to kill him (possibly with Snoke whispering in his mind that Luke feared him because he was too strong), without the second thoughts that stopped him from doing it.

The addiction model could work if you add in how the same drug can affect people differently. I'm a chronic pain patient, but one of the rare ones for whom opioids do squat. It's not a matter of willpower, it's just how it doesn't work with my brain. Perhaps some people can more easily handle using the Force because of how they're wired, while others need training. Though I'm giving TPTB too much credit to think they're actually using that much nuance.

I'm afraid there will be a last minute redemption for Ben as well. Even before we got the back story for Darth Vader, he was shown in the original series to be someone who'd just as soon choke someone to death in order to get another person to talk. He does try to get Luke to his side, literally and figuratively, including overthrowing the Emperor for the two of them to rule the galaxy.

Ben is sort of a Vader-lite, and the movies haven't been shy about making that connection and implying he's rather weaksauce in comparison. He's trying to get Rey on his side for similar reasons -- power to destroy the person controlling him and taking over -- but he doesn't have the same gravitas that Vader did. So if he can kill his own father, give a lot of consideration to killing his mother, and wants to rage kill his uncle, not to mention the non-family related things he's done, what kind of sacrifice could he make to even be considered as redeemed? He's already killed his version of the Emperor... or did he?

[betacandy]

The addiction model still falls short for me because addiction doesn't make you into a monster. I know, I know, it could be made to work anyway, but it just doesn't do anything for me. Especially not in a 2 hour film. That's a topic that would need a novel's worth of thought and development.

I read an interesting article which said... and I'm not going to put this as well as they did... that Vader is Hitler, and Ben is a neo-Nazi. That is, Vader was dedicated evil and an original, and Ben is just this whiny creep who wants to be a badass. And that in a way, the neo-Nazis are worse than Hitler, because they have the benefit of knowing how destructive Hitler's regime was, and they STILL want to be him. I thought that would be a fascinating way to deal with his character in the end, but I don't trust Abrams with it. I think in the end he would just have to die - let's face it, neo-Nazis are the type to commit suicide by cop, if they go off on a rampage of their own - and I think he's almost less redeemable than Vader. I mean, the Jedi failed Anakin disastrously, so you can kind of see how he ended up as he did (and my biggest qualm with his story is the idea that his last minute turnaround was enough to secure him the SW equivalent of a place in heaven, i.e., Force ghostliness). With Ben, he just doesn't seem to have the childhood traumas it takes to make a Vader.

And that's by Earth/human psychology standards, of course, which need not apply. It's just that I WILL always apply them. I can't help it. I grew up around enough real life Vaders *and* their families that, for me, the pattern of how they develop is shockingly predictable. When I see something that doesn't remotely conform to it in stories, I just lose interest. I'm not saying anyone needs to agree with me on that or react the same way, I'm just saying that's my reaction. I lost interest when the EU went in that direction with Ben.

[nialla42]

I can see a neo-Nazi take on Ben/Kylo Ren, and I think the films are pushing that angle in a sense, but it often comes off more as he's a weaksauce emo version of Vader.

At least in Vader's case we had some inkling before the prequels that he'd been "good" at some point, and the prequels detailed his rise and fall as a Jedi, then his rise and fall as a Sith. TFA seemed to imply that Snoke did something to Ben, TLJ seemed to continue that thread with a side order of Luke failing him one time, but I'm not sure we'll ever get a true story of what happened with him.

Though I'm starting to think that's the point. There seem to be quite a lot of questions about events from both movies that end up with "There's a book/comic that answers that question." It was one thing to expand existing canon with the EU, but I don't like the idea that they're potentially leaving things out of the scripts so they can put it into extended universe stuff. The EU began when the series was all but dead; working with a live one is very, very different.

[betacandy]

Ugh, if that's what they're doing, that's such a cynical marketing ploy.

For me, "what went wrong with Ben" would be a central question to answer in order to plan the future. Is it just that Jedi teachings have it wrong? Or are Force users just easily corrupted in general? Should we dump Jedi teachings, but not other Force traditions, or is the Force just something nobody should be learning to use? If that's left for a comic, then in my mind, the story would just have a big stupid hole through the middle of it.

[nialla42]

I think they're leaning towards the idea that the Force is neutral, but how people people use it is the problem. The Jedi are a good idea in concept, but after generations of teachings, they're off track from where they began.

Or that just could be one of my multitude of head canons talking.