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May 06, 2010 16:15


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Please see link near end of this comment for clarifications... anti_aol May 7 2010, 20:28:26 UTC
I'm going to take advantage of the bug that lets you edit a comment after it's been replied to for charmian at dreamwidth.org, who wrote a post about the person who's journal was allegedly invaded by dnewhall. Charmian added a link to this comment to discuss my allegations as well; I clarified them as much as my message archive and my memory will allow me to here on her post.

Sorry for any confusion: looking back, I realize I should have checked my message archive first before quoting what I was told, and should have made my comments more clear. What follows below this paragraph is my unaltered, original comment:

Locking is a waste of time if you're trying to hide posts from LJ staff. Closed support requests can be viewed by an assortment of folks as well, not just staff. I have never seen official word on it, but I have had plenty of unofficial words over the years with those who have privs, and I used to lurk in communities like LJ Abuse Abuse (yes, that's two Abuses in the name; it was made up of former angry volunteers - I used to troll them years ago) on how they're able to use those privs, if they want. It's nonsense on any LJ-based platform to think that your entries and/or closed support requests cannot be seen by anyone who's staff, and by certain volunteers as well. There are volunteers on this site trusted beyond all shadow of a doubt, who do a lot of good for the site, normally, who have admitted to me that...well, just guess the rest. It's nonsense to think that locking a post or closing a support request keeps those away from any of them.

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trixieleitz May 8 2010, 23:33:42 UTC
Closed Support requests in public categories can be viewed by anyone. All of these requests are closed. All you need to see an older closed request in a public category is the link to the request.

If a Support request was public and now isn't, that's because it's been moved to a private category, not because it's been closed.

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phaetonschariot May 10 2010, 22:26:39 UTC
Most people don't f-lock because they're trying to hide from staff, though.

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anti_aol May 11 2010, 01:15:15 UTC
But if you're flocking, you don't want staff to see it either, do you? I can't recall the last time I flocked an entry, then went out of my way to alert LJ staff to go read that entry. Like, "Please, folks, use your privs on marahmarie.livejournal.com/exampleflockedpost.html, I'm begging you guys." But when you flock you know what? You might as well just hand over the keys, because if someone with privs and willing to abuse them wants to see something badly enough, they will. That's the *other* reason (the one I never discuss, because honestly, I'm not into repeating unprovable allegations over and over again just to get a lot of heat for that) that I flock or privately post only rarely, knowing pretty well what I'm up against.

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phaetonschariot May 11 2010, 01:58:53 UTC
I think the assumption is that the staff doesn't actually care. I mean, there are how many users on LJ? If you're just f-locking so your mother doesn't visit your journal and see you talking about how good your [girl/boy]friend is in bed, most people aren't going to think "but what if an LJ staffmember comes to read my journal and looks at my f-locked posts and makes creepy comments?" Just making a post isn't nearly the same thing as telling someone to read it when there are thousands and thousands and thousands of posts being made a day. It's kind of like saying, "Well, if you lock your door you should expect that someone from the locksmiths company might come and break in and go through your things" because, hey, if they want to badly enough, they will.

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anti_aol May 11 2010, 03:37:14 UTC
Without getting too deep into semantics (like, where I whip out the charts and graphs, which would be hard to do without hard numbers?) suffice it to say it's more likely that unauthorized LJ staff will read your flocked journal than your locksmith will break into your house with that "extra" copy of your key. You know how they say it's more likely that you'll hit by lightning than (fill in the unlikely event here)? Well, to my mind...It's more likely your flocked post will be hit by unauthorized LJ staff than you will be hit by lightning. Call it my intuitive mathematics, if you will :)

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phaetonschariot May 11 2010, 03:54:16 UTC
It's also more likely that you'll be robbed than murdered, but that doesn't mean you should assume you'll be robbed or shouldn't attempt to get the culprits punished if you do. Maybe we're simply looking at this differently because your journal is infinitely more fascinating than anyone else's. In that case I can imagine you might worry about people hacking it to see if there's anything even better they can find instead of reading one of the other millions of journals with public entries, whereas I'm pretty sure none of the staff gives a damn if I'm tired and cranky.

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anti_aol May 12 2010, 02:18:15 UTC
Look, if you're going to be rude, then I'm going to be honest: your argument is illogical and stupid. It doesn't and cannot hold water.

Let's pretend you have a point, though: Let's agree that the vast majority of posts on LJ are made by 17 year old chicks talking about the first time they had sex with Joe Blow, how it went, what they want out of it next time, and so on. Of course these chicks would rather die than have Mom or Dad read these posts, so behind a lock they go.

By the same token, let's agree, just to shut you up, that these same chicks couldn't care less if every member of LJ staff reads every post they make in this vein. In fact, let's further assume that it gets these chicks off to even think about having LJ staff - strangers - read any of this titillating-to-themselves real-life soft porn. Am I doing OK so far? We all in agreement? OK.

Now let's go a step further and say that these chicks make over 70% of flocked posts on LJ each day. That leaves another 30% of users of all ages and genders who are writing about a lot more than their first time with Joe Blow (or their third time with him, or whatever). They are writing about 1) other people who use LJ, 2) other people who they associate with on the Web, AIM, IRC, or whatever 3) other people who are on LJ staff, 4) all kinds of other stuff that runs the gamut between "I never want anyone but peeps on my flist to ever know about this" to "I will go to jail if I'm caught" to "This is a classified secret, dudes".

Now. Do you think that 30% of LJ users want LJ staff - or anyone who's not already on their flist - to read any of THOSE posts?

The answer is not "Yes".

I have to go watch the Good Wife now, and it looks like a great episode, so I'll let you go be an asshole with someone else while I rest my case.

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phaetonschariot May 12 2010, 02:44:33 UTC
My original comment was "Most people don't f-lock because they're trying to hide from staff, though." I further clarified, "I think the assumption is that the staff doesn't actually care." and, "Just making a post isn't nearly the same thing as telling someone to read it when there are thousands and thousands and thousands of posts being made a day."

There are, indeed, probably some people who post evidence of illegal activities or classified information in locked posts on their livejournal. Those people are stupid not because LJ staff might abuse their privileges to read it (by, apparently, randomly picking the one person in a hundred thousand who's posting illegal and/or classified information under a lock by sheer dumb luck) but because LJ is not exactly a secure network that's unhackable by any but the most knowledgeable and advanced computer geeks, and because the police have ways to access such things if they have a suitable warrant.

No one wants LJ staff to read their f-locked posts. But my original point was, no one expects them to. You have talked to LJ staff and lurked in communities on the subject, most people have not. Your original comment/s could easily be read with a condescending tone and an implication that being surprised or shocked that an LJ staff member would read someone's locked post was nonsense, not to mention the outright statement that, "You might as well just hand over the keys, because if someone with privs and willing to abuse them wants to see something badly enough, they will."

If someone wants to commit a crime or socially immoral act, they will. That does not mean that people should expect it or not be upset if it happens. It's a numbers game. According to the stats page, 157940 journals are updated in a 24 hour period. Very, very few people are going to assume that their one journal is going to be picked out by one corrupt staff member to read and comment on, no matter what they're posting about. Especially if they're using LJ for its exact intended purpose, not breaking any site guidelines or laws.

Incidentally, you made three comments in the thread before I got sarcastic, and all three of them came across as pretty damn arrogant.

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anti_aol May 12 2010, 03:13:17 UTC
"There are, indeed, probably some people who post evidence of illegal activities or classified information in locked posts on their livejournal."

Or their work. There could be (in fact, I know for a fact, there are) entire networks of journals on LJ that are basically just decompression chambers for people who work for one company or another. They talk about their work. Their employer. Their boss. Their co-workers - so no, obviously, this is common sense, they don't want that out, either. You act like if an LJ staffer saw a sensitive post like that, like NO ONE saw it, and that's outrageous. Stupid.

It is just as bad if an LJ staffer sees it as it is if, say, your neighbor, your co-worker, or any other unwanted person sees it. Seriously, you make me scratch my head and go "What the hell?" because you do not seem to get it. It doesn't matter how small the risk is, how often it happens, or that it usually (your assumption, prove it) doesn't happen: it should not happen and could easily wreck certain lives if it does happen. End of story!

It's also none of your business why I *do* flock when I do or why I *do* make certain posts private (every single one of my private posts, just FYI, has started off completely public and been changed to a private post for a REASON that is none of yours or anyone else's business, but it does have a lot to do with keeping things private for the sake of other people, not just myself).

"Incidentally, you made three comments in the thread before I got sarcastic, and all three of them came across as pretty damn arrogant."

But I never personally insulted you nor made strawman attacks. Get lost.

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phaetonschariot May 12 2010, 03:18:40 UTC
I don't know what you're reading, but it's not what I'm typing. I've never said it's not a big deal that LJ staff can read posts. In fact, it's a huge deal. I compared it to committing a crime in general and at the very least breaking and entering in particular. THE ONLY THING I'VE SAID except for further statements trying to clarify because you're just not getting it IS THAT PEOPLE DO NOT EXPECT IT TO HAPPEN.

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anti_aol May 12 2010, 03:26:39 UTC
And you base the assumption THAT PEOPLE DO NOT EXPECT IT TO HAPPEN on what? The way you and your flist feel about such things? Your personal opinion that no one cares if you're tired or in a bad mood (what the hell are you putting stuff like *that* behind a lock, for, anyway - that *is* boring)? Congratulations! Congratulations for knowing for a fact that no one else has ever worried about a possible flocked journal invasion by LJ staff except for ME. That's right. I am the only fucking person on LiveJournal who has ever considered such a thing. You must be one hell of a smart dude to have figured all that out, so kudos to you.

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sullymygoodname May 12 2010, 14:20:05 UTC
1.) The fact that lj staff can (and do) read locked posts is definitely wrong, and if there's something that can be done to stop that then it should be done.
2.) If you (general 'you', not specific 'you') post sensitive materials and/or evidence that you have engaged in criminal activity anywhere on the internet, whether you believe it is private or not, then you're a fucking a moron.
3. Most people are not aware that lj staff can read their locked journals - they should be made aware - and furthermore, probably would not expect lj staff members to read them, either, as many people tend to write personal rants about their daily lives that they'd not want off-lj friends or family members to stumble across, rather than anything particularly salacious.
4. From reading this thread, it is my understanding that you believe that lj staff reading locked posts is a gross violation, but they are going to do it anyway, so people just shouldn't post anything locked. Whereas phaetonschariot seems to believe that lj staff reading locked posts is a gross violation and should be stopped, but people should not stop locking their entries, and simply because an entry is locked does not mean that a member of the lj staff will read it (considering the very high number of lj users and entries posted every day).

So, on the main point: lj staff abusing their power to read locked entries is a violation of privacy and should be stopped - it seems you both agree.

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anti_aol May 12 2010, 22:12:11 UTC
Thank you for point #3. In my own, how did he put it, let me quote..."pretty damn arrogant" way, that's all I was doing: warning people to be aware that this can and does happen. Consider it my helpful Public Service Announcement for the week. He, on the other hand, is so focused on my attitude he cannot get the message...he can't see the forest for the trees. I'm sorry for that, but I cannot help him. I am pretty damn sick (literally) and tired today, so I can't comment more extensively until I feel better, but suffice it to say, I meant well, and I did not mean for anyone to take my message as a personal affront to themselves (I was not suggesting anyone is dumb or misinformed for not knowing, simply trying to make them aware by the most abrasive means possible simply to catch anyone's attention). If I caught your attention, then I think I did my job this time around, so thanks.

*bows out...ya'll can finish up now*

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balthier September 11 2010, 14:27:56 UTC
Oh hey your icon looks familiar, are you the one who tried trolling DW?

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phaetonschariot September 11 2010, 20:09:42 UTC
I'm not sure what DW refers to in this context, so probably not.

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