Re: Jews, not RussiansadrexiaDecember 4 2007, 00:18:47 UTC
Are you saying that a Jewish person wouldn't be pegged as Russian if they spoke the Russian language, or with a Russian accent, in say, Peru?
Well - to the English speaking world they are both. "Russian" is the English word meaning "someone from Russia". Calling them "Russian Jews" implies that they are both Russian and Jewish. I can't see a way around that in English.
In Russia there are two words, as you have said. In English, "Ruski" used to be a separate word (it's now an insult I think), as did/is "Rus"(though that brings up a lot of cultural origin controversies).
I guess we have a similar but opposite problem here at the moment. Fifth generation New Zealander's are starting to object to being called "New Zealand European". But what else can you call them? "New Zealander" has been proposed, but that means that minorities would be classed as something other than "New Zealander"(which has previously been an inclusive term for anyone who identified as being from New Zealand). There is the Maori term "Pakeha" which is uniquely different - but a lot of the same people who no longer identify as European, still don't identify with the Maori term. As far as ethnicities go... well I'm Scottish, Welsh, German, Irish, and probably a large subset of "other". My Scottish heritage is fairly recent. But if I went to Scotland, or even to Russia, I would probably be pegged as a New Zealander. :D
By the way, Russia is mostly considered to be part of the Western world here. Not that it is a very useful way of classifying cultures... but its history seems a little more tightly bound with Europe than it does with Asia.
Re: Jews, not RussiansahousekeeperDecember 4 2007, 08:10:11 UTC
> Are you saying that a Jewish person wouldn't > be pegged as Russian if they spoke the Russian > language, or with a Russian accent, in say, Peru? Back in the Soviet times everyone from the USSR was called Russian by Westerners. But was that right? Not really. Russian is an ethnicity. You can't call Chechen a Russian, can you? You can't call a Kosovo Albanian a Serb, though de jure Kosovo is part of modern Serbia.
Re: Jews, not RussiansadrexiaDecember 4 2007, 20:26:56 UTC
Back in the Soviet times everyone from the USSR was called Russian by Westerners. But was that right? Not really. Russian is an ethnicity.
No. Russian is a nationality. Ruski was an ethnicity. You can pick a new word if you like, but Russian will still mean "Someone from Russia".
You can't call a Kosovo Albanian a Serb, though de jure Kosovo is part of modern Serbia.
That's where you are wrong. We can, and we do. Ethnicity isn't all that important on the grand scale. It is an individual thing. You can be proud of who you are and where you have come from - but everyone else will, or should, still treat you the same regardless. If you are from Russia, you are Russian. I don't care who your parents are or where they are from. It's actually fairly irrelevant. Russian is not an ethnicity. There should be a separate word for that, since people obviously care about it. Maybe "Slavic Russians", or "Ethnic Russians"?
But really it's just the meaning of the word that we disagree on, not anything else. *shrugs*
Re: Jews, not RussiansahousekeeperDecember 5 2007, 10:28:11 UTC
> Russian is not an ethnicity.
1 a: a native or inhabitant of Russia b: a member of the dominant Slavic-speaking ethnic group of Russia c: a person of Russian descent2: a Slavic language of the Russian people spoken as a second language by many non-Russian ethnic groups of the Soviet Union and its successor states http://webster.com/dictionary/russian
Well - to the English speaking world they are both. "Russian" is the English word meaning "someone from Russia". Calling them "Russian Jews" implies that they are both Russian and Jewish. I can't see a way around that in English.
In Russia there are two words, as you have said. In English, "Ruski" used to be a separate word (it's now an insult I think), as did/is "Rus"(though that brings up a lot of cultural origin controversies).
I guess we have a similar but opposite problem here at the moment. Fifth generation New Zealander's are starting to object to being called "New Zealand European". But what else can you call them? "New Zealander" has been proposed, but that means that minorities would be classed as something other than "New Zealander"(which has previously been an inclusive term for anyone who identified as being from New Zealand). There is the Maori term "Pakeha" which is uniquely different - but a lot of the same people who no longer identify as European, still don't identify with the Maori term. As far as ethnicities go... well I'm Scottish, Welsh, German, Irish, and probably a large subset of "other". My Scottish heritage is fairly recent. But if I went to Scotland, or even to Russia, I would probably be pegged as a New Zealander. :D
By the way, Russia is mostly considered to be part of the Western world here. Not that it is a very useful way of classifying cultures... but its history seems a little more tightly bound with Europe than it does with Asia.
Reply
> be pegged as Russian if they spoke the Russian
> language, or with a Russian accent, in say, Peru?
Back in the Soviet times everyone from the USSR was called Russian by Westerners. But was that right? Not really. Russian is an ethnicity. You can't call Chechen a Russian, can you? You can't call a Kosovo Albanian a Serb, though de jure Kosovo is part of modern Serbia.
> I'm Scottish, Welsh, German, Irish, and
> probably a large subset of "other".
We are again approaching the primordialism vs constructivism argument. No need to repeat it once more: http://news.livejournal.com/104520.html?thread=66776136#t66776136
Reply
No. Russian is a nationality. Ruski was an ethnicity. You can pick a new word if you like, but Russian will still mean "Someone from Russia".
You can't call a Kosovo Albanian a Serb, though de jure Kosovo is part of modern Serbia.
That's where you are wrong. We can, and we do. Ethnicity isn't all that important on the grand scale. It is an individual thing. You can be proud of who you are and where you have come from - but everyone else will, or should, still treat you the same regardless. If you are from Russia, you are Russian. I don't care who your parents are or where they are from. It's actually fairly irrelevant. Russian is not an ethnicity. There should be a separate word for that, since people obviously care about it. Maybe "Slavic Russians", or "Ethnic Russians"?
But really it's just the meaning of the word that we disagree on, not anything else. *shrugs*
Reply
> > though de jure Kosovo is part of modern Serbia.
> That's where you are wrong. We can, and we do.
I would appreciate an example: a quotation with a link from any news outlet.
Reply
1 a: a native or inhabitant of Russia b: a member of the dominant Slavic-speaking ethnic group of Russia c: a person of Russian descent2: a Slavic language of the Russian people spoken as a second language by many non-Russian ethnic groups of the Soviet Union and its successor states
http://webster.com/dictionary/russian
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